The World War Forum (Page 89)

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Posted by: Bill Henley {Email left}
Location: Stroud Gloucestershire
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 12:12 PM
Dear Alan I have a picture of my grandfather George Whyte Gordon in a Royal Engineers uniform and with sergeant strips. His daughter (my Aunt) remembers being told that he was a sergeant in the Royal Engineers. I have found a medals record for George White Gordon and wonder if it is my grandfather although there is a discrepancy with the spelling of Whyte/White. On the medal card it has corps as "RE. J. W. & D" the regimental number is "W.R. 341086" His rank is "Cpl" Date of discharge " 14.12.18" Enlistment "11.12.17" Cause of discharge "Para 392(XXV9?) K.R W W.O.60 b/1912.18" Action taken List R.E/2793 . I wonder if you could assist me please with the details of the corps, the cause of discharge and the action taken. It might help me to check whether I have the right man. Very many thanks.
Reply from: Bill Henley
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 3:32 PM

I see that for the record on the IWM site the I.W. & D is referred to as Inland Waterways and Docks.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 5:20 PM

Dear Bill,
The "medals record" for George White Gordon is in fact a silver War Badge record card. The spelling of White would not have been unusual at a time when most records were written by non-family members as they sounded phonetically.
The card shows he was discharged under Paragraph 392 section xxva of King's Regulations which stated "his services are no longer required" (xxv) and "A soldier who cannot be discharged under any other heading" (sub section a). The "W" indicated wound. His substantive rank was Corporal, although he might well have been appointed an acting sergeant. Substantive rank was recognised by the war Office and was the rank for which he received pay and allowances. A Commanding Officer could "appoint" a soldier to a higher rank on a temporary basis, either with or without extra pay, but this was not recognised as a permanent rank (promotion) by the war Office until it became permanent.
Action taken refers to the silver War Badge list no R.E. 2793. This list stated similar information to the index card with the addition that he had not served overseas and was aged 46 (born about 1872) when his War Badge (for being wounded) was issued on 4th January 1919 under authority of War Office memorandum 60/B dated 19 December 1918.
The W.R. prefix to his regimental number stood for Waterway and Railways which included Inland Waterways and Docks.
No individual service record has survived for him.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Bill Henley
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 6:45 PM

Dear Alan, Many thanks for your thorough reply. It is proving very difficult to obtain definitive information to be sure that this is my grandfather. As a boy he told me of going into a German dugout and finding the German occupants sitting around a table playing cards. However, they had all been gassed and were dead. If the story was true then he had been abroad and served on the Western Front but this conflicts with the information found by you. He was born in 1873, so the date of birth does match. I will report back to my Aunt in the hope that there may be some other memory of him and his war service. Another story he told me of trekking through jungle and sleeping in a hammock and finding a dead man in the hammock above, could tie in with a written record of him deserting his ship in Demerara, (now part of Guyana, South America) in the 1890's. Once again, my thanks. Bill
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 7:57 PM

Dear Brian,
You can search for earlier records on the Findmypast.co.uk website. Charges apply; you will need 30 credits. Do not click on transcription or you'll waste credits. There was a George Gordon born about 1872 who enlisted in the Royal Artillery and then served in the West Indies with the 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders. I am not allowed to transcribe details from that website. Enter George Gordon as a search, refine the results to Military, armed forces and conflict and go to page seven of the results.
For the same man, on the Ancestry website, the UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949 for G Gordon records the same man earning the India Medal "Defence of Chitral"; Queen's South Africa Medal with five clasps; King's South Africa Medal with clasps 1901 and 1902.
Military records often used men's initials only, so you would need to search for George W. Gordon, George Gordon, G. Gordon, G.W. Gordon as well as George Whyte Gordon and its variations.
It is possible there is a campaign medal index card for him under a different regiment and name variation.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Bill Henley
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 8:25 PM

Dear Alan, Many thanks for the information and new leads. Bill
Posted by: Becky {Email left}
Location: Norfolk
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 11:35 AM
We've been looking for the regimental history of my great-grandfather's regiment for a long time now but with no luck. We know that he joined in Cornwall in 1915, and have a picture of a group of soldiers with the sign "Some of the Cornish Boys, A. Sub Section, B. Battery, 1st [I think] AA Brigade". We know he was in 222 RGA, and we know that at one point they were stationed in England before they went to France. We also know that whilst stationed in England, they received medals for shooting down a Zeppelin. However, that's all we know about any of his service, and although they say they have some of the history at Kew, it's not very forthcoming in terms of information. Does anyone have any ideas where we might look for regimental history for a regiment that seems a bit record/story shy? Thanks!

Posted by: Kez {No contact email}
Location: Sydney
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 10:01 PM
Good morning Alan,
Would you be able to find any info for me please on Thomas Henry Larkey in WW1 please. He was born about 1900 London. I believe he joined in 1918
With thanks Kez
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 10:53 PM

Dear Kez,
Thomas Henry Larkey was born on May 28th 1900. He was baptised on June 1st 1900 at Bromley St Leonard and St Mary church, London, the son of Thomas Henry and Ellen Caroline of 35 Hancock Road, Bromley-by-Bow.
Because of his date of birth, he would have been compulsorily conscripted when he attained the age of 18 and one month. From 1916, the Military Service Acts considered every man of military age to be under military law and Thomas Larkey's record showed he was "deemed to have been enlisted" on 29th May 1918 and he was actually called-up on 21st June 1918 in Central London. He trained as a rifleman in the 53rd Young Soldier Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) at Northampton until July 1918 when he was posted to the 51st (Graduated) Battalion KRRC in the training reserve stationed at Colchester. He was discharged on 24th January 1919 after being a recruit in uniform in England for seven months.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Kez
Date: Monday 12th May 2014 at 4:51 AM

Many thanks Alan, I appreciate your help,
Cheers Kez
Posted by: Eleanor Cole {Email left}
Location: Clipstone
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 8:50 PM
Dear Alan,
I have just been looking on pages that mention Clipstone Camp. My husbands Grandfather died there and I, with my late husband, moved to a new house on the site 12 years ago. A local historian, Pauline Marple,, has produced a book all about the camp and the surrounding area of Mansfield.
This October there is to be an Exhibition at Mansfield Museum on the centenary of the camp and Pauline is anxious to produce as much information as she can find for this event and it seems that many of your subscribers have had family members passing through which is not surprising as it was a camp for 30,000 troops
I have told her about your amazing site and, who knows, there might be some more feed back from this email.
Posted by: Eleanor Cole {Email left}
Location: Clipstone
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 8:03 PM
Alan, first of all, what is your chosen charity please?

Do you have any information about the service of

Cpl A V Waddington 35677 5th Inf.Labour Coy. Labour corps.who died Dec 5th 1918 age 31 Husband of E.R. Waddington of 170 Ashville Rd,. Grove Green Rd. Leytonstone, London.
Eleanor.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 10:54 PM

Dear Eleanor,
No individual military service records have survived for Corporal A.V. Waddington o it is not possible to be specific about his service. The CWGC Debt of Honour recorded he first served with the Leicestershire Regiment. An Army medal rolls index-card showed he went to France on 29th July 1915 with the Leicestershire Regiment. That was the date the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment went to France with the 110th Infantry Brigade in the 37th Division. The 110th Infantry Brigade had been formed in April 1915 from battalions raised in August and September 1914, so it is probable that he enlisted voluntarily at the beginning of the war. It is likely that he had been wounded; returned to England; and, on recovery, transferred to the Labour Corps as a result of not being fit enough to serve again at the Front. For the engagements of the 37th Division see:
http://www.1914-1918.net/37div.htm

It is probable he was Albert Victor Waddington born at Mile End Old Town, London whose birth was registered in July-Aug-Sept 1887. June 20th 1887 was Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee so he was named after Queen Victoria and the Prince Consort Albert. He was recorded as a cutler's grinder in 1911. He appears to have married Elizabeth Harrison in the last quarter of 1917 at Mile End Old Town.
He had enlisted in the Lincolnshire Regiment with the regimental number 35677 (although his medal card stated 15023). Albert later served in an unidentified "5th Labour Company" which was not necessarily in the Labour Corps. Other Corps such as the Army Service Corps and the Royal Engineers had Labour Companies. Neither the CWGC nor the medal card listed another regimental number for the Labour Corps other than 25878, so it seems probable that he served in 5th Labour Company Labour Corps. At some stage he was transferred to the 377th Home Service Employment Company Labour Corps. It would appear he was in the UK by mid to late 1917 as he married in October - December 1917.
Albert qualified for the 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. His death was registered as a civilian (i.e. not war) GRO death at Southwell, Nottinghamshire, so he probably died in hospital or at "home". His medal card recorded him as dec[eased] 5.12.18.
My selected charity is the Royal British Legion. There is a link at the top of this page.
With kind regards,
Alan

Posted by: Brian Renshall {Email left}
Location: Rainhill
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 6:36 PM
Alan,Could I through your web site let you know about an event which will be taking place in Latour en Woevre in France on 24th,May this year.On that day Lts.R.I.A.Hickes & T.A.Jones will be honoured with a "poppy laying" ceremony at which Souvenir Francais(which I think is similar to our British Legion) French War Veterans,local dignitaries and the people of the village (pop 92 !) followed by a reception in the village hall. The two airmen(Hickes was the pilot,Jones the observer) were returning from a bombing raid in Germany when they were shot down(its all on the internet) and crashed near the church in Latour en Woevre.Rainhill Civic Society have been carrying research on the men from our village who died in WW1 ready for a commemorative event later this year.Jones was born in Rainhill & after reading his story we contacted the Mayor of Latour en Woevre and asked for photos of the graves,they are 'not' in a military cemetery but in the churchyard.The people of Latour have long wondred about the two airmen who they say died for France and are delighted that we have made contact.The Civic Society sent over the crosses simply asking if they could be laid on the two graves but as you can see the village have gone above and beyond.Hickes was born in Market Weighton,East Yorkshire and the local newspaper there are to run the story
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 6:52 PM

Dear Brian,
It is pleasing to hear that the people of Latour and Rainhill are commemorating the incident in which Lieutenants Hickes and Jones were killed. Focussing on individuals after so many years is an important aspect of the centenary of the outbreak of the First World War and the residents of Latour have gone to some lengths to mark the occasion. I wish you well with the Civic Society's event later in the year.
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Margaret {Email left}
Location: Conwy
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 4:17 PM
Hello Alan,

I am searching for information about my Grandfather, Joseph Worley Edwin Nicholls, born in Sculcoates in 1895. I understand he served in the East Yorkshire Regiment and obtained the rank of Sergeant. I was told by my Uncle that Joseph was a prisoner of war but that he never spoke about it. I know this is not much to go on but I would really appreciate any help you can give me.

Kind regards
Margaret.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 6:53 PM

Dear Margaret,
Unfortunately, there is insufficient information to identify a specific Joseph Nicholls in the surviving army records. Details of Prisoners of War are held by the archives of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva, and will be accessible in August 2014. See:
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/article/other/archives-first-world-war-2011-07-27.htm

With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Margaret
Date: Saturday 10th May 2014 at 7:23 PM

Dear Alan,

Thank you for your very prompt reply. I have been trying for some time to get my Grandfather's (Joseph Nicholls) army number from family members so far without without success. As soon as I receive it I will contact you again. In the meantime I will wait until August and see what that brings.

Kind regards
Margaret.
Posted by: Eleanor Cole {Email left}
Location: Clipstone Notts
Date: Friday 9th May 2014 at 8:55 AM
Dear Alan,
With reference to Charles Edward Cole...
I have found out that his army No. during service in 1800s with Royal West Surrey 2nd Bat Queens Regiment was 4051. You said that you needed numbers to help identify the correct person. although from what you have already told me you have found the right man.
In the 1914/ 1918 war when he re enlisted , his number was 240956.
I have a photo of a cane (swagger stick) that he owned which is dark wood and silver topped.It shows a crown with the word Peninsula below then underneath a stylised 8 pointed cross with a circle within
showing a central bugle and words round the edge which read ROYAL RIFLES and one other word which looks like SORIY followed by something I can,t read. There is a depiction of a wavy ribbon under that
Do you think that cane was given to him as part of his rank? Did he indeed receive promotion during either of his two periods of service 1800s or 14/18.?
Thank you so much for all your help as I understand many papers were lost due to fire and those that survived are difficult to read.
Yours Sincerely,...Eleanor.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 9th May 2014 at 4:02 PM

Dear Eleanor,
Swagger sticks were commonplace during the First World War and could be carried by all ranks when walking out, so a stick was not evidence of a particular rank. Sergeant Majors on parade might have carried a drill cane. Canes were not used on operations. The wording was "The King's Royal Rifles". Within the ribbon the wording was Celer et Audax, the regimental motto: "Swift and Bold".
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Eleanor Cole {Email left}
Location: Clipstone
Date: Thursday 8th May 2014 at 4:05 PM
To ALAN,
firstly, thank you for clarifying my thoughts about Henry Rosewell.

My husbands other Grandfather also served in other wars.His name was Charles Edward Cole (sometimes noted as Edward Charles Cole) born in Bagshot Surrey to William and Mary Cole 19/9/1873. He had already enlisted in the army when he met and married Rosa Jane Harding 19/10/1898 in Worplesdon Surrey.I think that he served overseas in India(?) Africa Tegula Heights and Ladysmith (Boer?),returned,was pensioned due to ill health 30/11/1900 served with v. good behaviour. He tried to re enlist in 1914 and I know that at sometime he was a Sergeant Major.
Did he serve again in 1914 and were there any medals?
He lived out his life in Walton on Thames Surrey growing Chrysanthemums finally dying on26/7/1950.
Sincerely, Eleanor.

I posted this originally on the reply page in error.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 8th May 2014 at 5:52 PM

Dear Eleanor,
It is generally not possible to identify military records by a man's name only, as it is necessary to know his regiment and regimental number, especially as many records only used the man's initials, surname and regimental number.
However, there was a Charles Edward Cole, a gardener, born 1873, who lived at 18 Florence Road, Walton-on-Thames, in 1914, who had previously served in the 2nd Queens (Royal West Surrey) from 1891 to 1900. He appears to be the same Charles Edward Cole listed in the 1911 census as a market gardener and army pensioner living at Worplesdon.
During the First World War he enlisted, at the age of 41, on 6th December 1915. He joined the 15th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps, which was a training and reserve battalion based in England at Seaford. Such training and reserve battalions were also used on coastal defence duties. On the 1st September 1916, the 15th Battalion KRRC was re-named the 18th Training Reserve Battalion.
On 16th June 1917, Charles was transferred from the 18th Training Reserve to the army's Labour Corps and was employed by an un-named Employment Company of the Labour Corps in the Nottingham region. Many employment companies were occupied with farming. Charles was discharged from the Labour Corps on 20th March 1919. He did not serve overseas during the First World War and therefore did not qualify for any campaign medals.
He stated he had previously served nine years and was a pensioner of the 2nd Queen's. Military records form that period are scant so it is not possible to state if he served all of his nine years with 2nd Queens. If he was discharged on 30th November 1900 and he had served nine years, he would have enlisted in 1891. The 2nd Queens was at Dinapore in India in 1892. The Battalion moved to Dover, England, in February 1894 and then to Woking in 1895. In September 1897 the Battalion moved to Aldershot. They were sent to South Africa at the outbreak of the Second Anglo-Boer War (11 October 1899 31 May 1902) and were on the Modder River on 28th November 1899. In 1900 they were involved in operations in Transvaal, Orange Free State, and Natal. Charles Cole certainly served in South Africa with the 2nd Queen's for a few months from October 1899 to about March 1900 when he was returned to England "invalided". His name does not appear on the available casualty lists, so it is probable he suffered illness rather than wounds. The South Africa medal rolls recorded Private 4051 Charles Cole 2nd Battalion Queen's qualified for the Queen's South Africa Medal with three clasps: The state clasp "Orange Free State" for general service there after 28 February 1900; "Relief of Ladysmith" (15 December 1899 28 February 1900 (Natal)) and "Tugela Heights" (1227 February 1900 (Natal)).
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Eleanor Cole {Email left}
Location: Uk
Date: Wednesday 7th May 2014 at 9:04 PM
My husbands Grandfather, Henry Rosewell was born March 21st 1871 in Shepperton Middx. He went to support a friend who wanted to enlist but the friend failed the medical so the officer asked Henry instead and although he was 44 he was declared fit. He was in the RAMC a private no.80575 no.8 Coy (York) and when he died at Clipstone Camp 3/12/1916. It was from TB. The family always said that he was wounded in France but I couldn't find out if this was true or not. He is buried in a War Grave at Forest Town (St. Alban) Churchyard Notts.
I have lived on the site of the former Clipstone Camp for 12 years not knowing then that he had died there and I have a book about the camp which lists Henrys war Grave with others.
Is it possible to find out, if in his short service life he did or not serve in France and get wounded?

Yours Sincerely, E P Cole.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 7th May 2014 at 10:27 PM

Dear Eleanor,
There is no evidence to suggest Henry Rosewell served in France, or was wounded. His individual service record does not state he served overseas, or that he was wounded. There is no entry for him in the Army medal rolls index, suggesting he did not serve overseas as he did not qualify for any campaign medals. Henry, of Charlston Road, Shepperton, enlisted on November 2nd 1915 at Kingston upon Thames and joined the Royal Army Medical Corps with the regimental number 80575 on November 9th 1915. He passed a course of instruction on 17th March 1916 and on 1st June 1916 was posted to No 8 Company RAMC, which in the 1914 order of battle was based in Northern Command at York. Henry was admitted to Clipstone Military Hospital on 3rd October 1916 suffering tuberculosis of the lung. He died on 3rd December 1916.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Eleanor Cole
Date: Thursday 8th May 2014 at 7:38 AM

Thank you so much for confirming what I had been thinking about Henry Rosewell.
My husbands other grandparent also served in other wars. His name was Charles Edward Cole born in Bagshot Surrey to William and Mary Cole 19/9/1873...He had already enlisted in the Army when he met and married Rosa Jane Harding 19/10/1898 in Worplesdon .I think that he served in a war overseas Tegula Heights and Ladysmith ( Boer?) and india returned was pensioned 30/11/1900 and tried to enlist in 1914 but know very little although I believe that he became a Sergeant Major at some point in his first period of service. He lived out his life in Walton on Thames dying 26/7/1950. Did he receive any medals?
Sincerely, Eleanor Cole.
Reply from: Eleanor
Date: Thursday 8th May 2014 at 9:41 AM

Charles Edward Cole as on his birth was sometimes listed as Edward Charles Cole just to confuse research.
Eleanor.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 8th May 2014 at 5:53 PM

Dear Eleanor,
Don't worry about the double post. I've replied to this above.
Alan

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