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Alan Greveson's World War 1 Forum (Page 24)

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Posted by: David {Email left}
Location: East Yorkshire
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 9:19 PM
Hello Alan,
I wonder if you could help me with James William ODELL, who was my uncle by marriage. I have found these details on Ancestry under the British Army Service Records 1914-1920
First name(s) James William O'Dell
Service number 81272
Regiment Cheshire Regiment
Unit / Battalion -
Event year 1918
Age 19 Birth year - He was born in 1899 in Hendon
I should be most grateful for anything you can add to these details.
With many thanks
David

PS His brother in law Brindsley Ogles died in South Africa in 1915 aged 20. Is it possible that there are records for this period? Many thanks David
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 30th March 2015 at 12:41 PM

Dear Dave,
The Ancestry website does not appear to have a service record for James William O'Dell or Odell. The index entry you have cited might come from the Findmypast.co.uk website which lists events by year. Details from that subscription website cannot be copied and published on the internet, so it is necessary for individuals to pay for access to the records on that website.
Civil death records in South Africa are held in South Africa and might be made available on personal application to the South African High Commission in London (charges apply). See:
http://southafricanfamilyhistory.com/birth-marriage-and-death-records/
There was a Brindey (sic) Ogles, born about 1896, who died at Muree, India in 1931, aged 35. The record is available from Findmypast.co.uk under the name of "B O'Les".
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Jane {Email left}
Location: Rye
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 3:27 PM
Hi, I wonder if someone can help me, Ive searched on the web but it hasn't come up with anything and I don't know where to look next.
I am trying to find out about my grandfathers war service. I know his was in the First World War he lied about his age and said he was a year old than he was. The following is all the info that I have.
Sapper..Royal Engineers Corps..First number he got would have been 189072 which is the number on his Great War for Civilisation Medal (British War Medal)
Then for some reason his Dog Tags & his Service Pay Book have WR/257693 on them.
I would be grateful for any advise. Thanks Jane
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 7:08 PM

Dear Jane,
You have not stated your ancestor's name, although the regimental number 189072 was allotted to Ernest J. Gibbs in the Royal Engineers. He qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. He was posted to the Waterways and Railways section of the Royal Engineers and re-numbered WR 257693. That move would have occurred in about March 1918. There are no further records for him to identify his military service.
As he did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star for service overseas before 31st December 1915 he did not go abroad until some date after January 1st 1916.
It is possible he applied for a pension after the war, although many men accepted a gratuity instead. The Western Front Association holds an otherwise unavailable archive of First World War army pension records. The WFA charges for manual searches of the records. See:
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/all-about-the-wfa/wfa-news-events/pension-records/pension-record-lookup-request-fee.html
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jane
Date: Monday 30th March 2015 at 10:03 AM

Thank you for that information , do you know if there is any way we can find out where he was sent in France , we know he met a girl and she sent post cards from Lille, but the was also reference to Ypes and Audruicq which is where he was sent home from. Thanks Jane
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 30th March 2015 at 12:42 PM

Dear Jane,
Unfortunately, it is not possible to state where he served without knowing from family sources in which units of the Royal Engineers he served.
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Derek Mason {Email left}
Location: Hull
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 2:20 PM
Hi Alan, Several years ago you gave some very useful advice which helped me to eventually locate my great uncle's army unit. I am hoping that you may be able to help once more.

My grandfather, Thomas Charles Mason, was born in Hull in 1880 and lived all his life there. In a photo dated c1898 he is an army recruit wearing a 'trainee' busby (artillery units had busbys). He could have been in the 2nd East Riding Yorkshire RGA (volunteers). Their HQ was in Hull. In another photo c1914/15 he is in army uniform. His cap badge has the shape of the Royal Field Artillery badge. Pre-war he worked as a decorator so his soldiering was part-time. I think he will have been in the Northumbrian Division, Territorial Force which was formed on reorganisation in 1908. The Division included the 2nd Northumbrian Brigade RFA (TF), with HQ at Hull, and that Brigade had been formed from parts of the the 1st and 2nd East Riding Yorkshire RGA (volunteers). In 1914 the Brigade became 1st/2nd Northumbrian Brigade RFA (TF) upon formation of a 'second line' unit. The Northumbrian Division went to France in April 1915 but, as far as I am aware, my grandfather did not go. He had a wife and 3 very young kids to support and was the only breadwinner so he will not have been keen to go.

I believe that the 'second line' units (men who had not volunteered to go overseas) of the 2nd Northumbrian Division remained at home for a time. I think my grandfather may have been in the second line. However, just after conscription was introduced in 1916, I understand that the second line was disbanded and artillery brigades were formed to go overseas. At that time my grandfather switched forces and joined the Royal Naval Reserve in May 1916. I have his Navy service record.

I would like to find out if he was in the 2nd Northumbrian Brigade RFA (TF). I have made numerous enquiries but I cannot find any records or references. Neither East Yorkshire archives or Hull archives have any records which would help and I cannot find any references at the National Archives. The Northumbrian Volunteer Artillery Association at Gateshead only has records for the Newcastle and Durham brigades.

I understand that in 1915 the Northumbrian Division was numbered 50th (Northumbrian) Division and comprised the 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th Northumbrian Brigades RFA. In 1920 the 2nd Northumbrian was at Wenlock Barracks, Hull but I do not know what happened to them after then. The barracks are not in use now.Towards the end of 1915 the second line was numbered 63rd (2nd Northumbrian) Division but was disbanded in May 1916 at the same time that the 315-318 2nd Northumbrian Brigades RFA went to France. Possibly if I could find out who holds the records for the 50th (Northumbrian) Division and 63rd (2nd Northumbrian) Division there is a chance that they would have some relevant records relating to the immediate pre-war and 1914/15 period.

Any suggestions as to a way forward would be welcome.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 7:09 PM

Dear Derek,
There were two styles of busby; one worn by the Royal Horse Artillery, similar to that of the Hussars with white plume and red bag; and the "rifle" busby worn by such regiments as the King's Royal Rifle Corps; Queen's Own Rifles; Rifle Volunteers; Rifle Brigade and so on.
There is no surviving First World War army service record for Thomas Charles Mason of Hull. He might have served only in the R.N.R. during the war itself. If any individual army service record has survived for the period before the First World War it would be available under "military, armed forces and conflict" on the Findmypast.co.uk subscription website (pay as you go).
During wartime a Division was a tactical unit of between 16,000 and 18,000 men and was formed of many units and Staff departments at different times each of which would have kept its own records. At Divisional HQ level it would be unusual to find references to an individual soldier. Any search would require prior knowledge of a soldier's surname, initials, regiment or corps and regimental number. The National Archives holds records of 297 units of 50 Division, mainly unit war diaries, which would take a many months to search through. Individual service records of men who served in the army in the First World War were held by regimental record offices at county or district level. After the war they were archived in the War Office repository in Arnside Street, London, which was destroyed by bombing in 1940.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Derek Mason
Date: Monday 30th March 2015 at 11:59 AM

Dear Alan,
Thanks very much for your very quick reply. The photo c1898 is in black and white. The side plume on his 'trainee' busby appears to be coloured but his belt and attached bag appear to be white. Before 1899 Hull was the HQ of the 2nd East Riding of Yorks Volunteer Artillery (Western Division) RA. In July 1899 the Royal Artillery was divided into 3 groups- Royal Horse, Royal Field and Royal Garrision Artillery. Hull was part of the coastal defence system so it had a Royal Garrison artillery but not Royal Horse- hence my thoughts that my grandfather was in the RGA which became the 2nd Northumbrian Brigade RFA. Sadly it looks like I will not be able to prove it one way or another. Many thanks for your comments.
Very best wishes
Derek
Posted by: Graham E Dickenson {Email left}
Location: Newark
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 12:29 PM
Hi Alan, Can you help me with the exact location of the R.A.M.C. 7th Training Battalion. Its location is given as Blackpool but was it in the town, just outside or a few miles away. The person I am researching was trained there as a stretcher bearer. Best regards, Graham E Dickenson.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 3:38 PM

Dear Graham,
I have no primary evidence for the location of 7th Training Battalion R.A.M.C. but they would almost certainly have been based at Weeton Camp, Weeton; about eight miles from Blackpool. The Camp was established as a tented camp in 1915 and by 1916 the R.A.M.C. had centralised numerous training units at Blackpool, including many training battalions; the R.A.M.C. School of Instruction at Lytham St Anne's (which had re-located from Crookham Camp, Aldershot); an officers' training centre; and a school of hygiene on Watson Road.
There certainly were training battalions at Weeton Camp where the men lived in tents in summer and moved to billets in the town in winter. They sometimes trained on the beach between South Shore and St Anne's. Blackpool, Lytham and St Anne's with their hotels and guest houses, were suited to providing not only accommodation but also nine Red Cross auxiliary hospitals; a military convalescent hospital and the Victoria Hospital which was then on Whitegate Drive.
Records of the R.A.M.C. at Blackpool between 1914 and 1918 would be held either by the Army Medical Services Museum, Keogh Barracks, Ash Vale, Aldershot, Hampshire GU12 5RQ; or the Wellcome Library,183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE.
In August 1915 the local newspapers reported that Blackpool was still busy with tourists.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Graham E Dickenson
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 4:42 PM

Dear Alan, Once again many thanks. Best regards, Graham E Dickenson
Posted by: Becca {Email left}
Location: East Yorkshire
Date: Saturday 28th March 2015 at 10:03 PM
Hello again Alan,
I wonder if you could help me once again, by finding a little more information about this soldier for me.
George Harry Coupland
Driver Royal Artillery (Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery) 45236 British War Medal and Victory Medal

With many thanks
Becca
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 29th March 2015 at 3:33 PM

Dear Becca,
It has been established previously that there is no surviving individual service record for George Harry Coupland 45236 Royal Field Artillery so it is not possible to state his military service. It is possible he might have applied for a pension. The Western Front Association holds an otherwise unavailable archive of First World War army pension records which might identify him. The WFA charges for manual searches of the records. See:
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/all-about-the-wfa/wfa-news-events/pension-records/pension-record-lookup-request-fee.html
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Geoff {Email left}
Location: Maidenhead
Date: Thursday 26th March 2015 at 10:54 PM
Hi Alan,
You have helped me a couple of times before and I hope you can help again.
Frank Horton,23, Harbord Street, Edge Hill, Liverpool.
Enlisted in Liverpool on 17/9/1914, Army Service corps No 12084 at the age of 21 years and 276 days.
Discharged 8/1/1915.
I believe he re-enlisted later in the Royal Army medical Corps. Can you possibly find information re this 2nd enlistment?
I would be most grateful.
Best regards,
Geoff.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 27th March 2015 at 2:00 PM

Dear Geoff,
Unfortunately there are no surviving documents that show Frank Horton re-enlisted. He was processed for discharge as "unlikely to become an efficient soldier for some time", in December 1914, and was described as "a good man but very delicate". He was discharged from 146 Company A.S.C., 17th Divisional A.S.C. Train, Combe Keynes, Dorset, on January 8th 1915, having been examined at Dorchester Military Hospital. His discharge was cited under Paragraph 392 iii (d) of King's Regulations which referred to a: "recruit [with less than 3 months' service] who after having undergone a course of physical training is recommended by an examining board to be discharged, or in the case of a mounted corps, is unable to ride". The A.S.C. was not a combatant arm of the forces, although many of its units served at the Front under fire. Frank Horton had joined the transport section of the A.S.C. (indicated by the regimental number prefix T 2) so, apparently, he was not fit enough or able to adapt to military life with a company that relied on horse transportation. He would not have served overseas with the A.S.C.. The "2" in his regimental number prefix referred to Kitchener's second New Army, raised from 11th September 1914. The number of volunteer recruits at that time meant that unit commanders could afford to be selective about the men they eventually accepted.
There was a Frank Horton who enlisted in the R.A.M.C. on 18th August 1915 and was discharged through sickness on 2nd July 1919, having served overseas as a private with the R.A.M.C. under the regimental number 62991. His age at discharge in July 1919 was 27 years and ten months (born September 1891) which is not the same as Frank Horton who enlisted on 17th September 1914 (apparently born about November 18th 1892). Dates of birth on military documents are often inaccurate. There is no biographical information for him within the R.A.M.C. medal records, so it is not possible to state whether he is the same man. There was only one Frank Horton listed in the R.A.M.C. medal rolls. He qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal as well as the silver War Badge for being discharged because of sickness. The men of the R.A.M.C. did not have to carry weapons, except for personal defence or the defence of their patients, so it is plausible a man less inclined towards riding horses, or physically lacking the army's "offensive spirit", would be accepted into the R.A.M.C. during that period of the war, in 1914 and 1915, when all recruits were volunteers. But, no evidence is presently to hand.
The Western Front Association holds an otherwise unavailable archive of First World War army pension records. It is possible Frank Horton applied for a pension. The W.F.A. charges for manual searches of the records. See:
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/all-about-the-wfa/wfa-news-events/pension-records/pension-record-lookup-request-fee.html
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Geoff
Date: Friday 27th March 2015 at 2:43 PM

Many thanks Alan. Much appreciated,
Geoff.
Posted by: Rob
Location: Middlesbrough
Date: Monday 23rd March 2015 at 9:21 PM
Hi Alan,
Please could you provide any information (movements, service record etc.) with regards to Private (later Corporal) 2500 John Frank Orman, 11th London Regiment.
Wit
With Kind Regards
Rob
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 24th March 2015 at 12:22 AM

Dear Rob,
Unfortunately, no individual service record has survived for Rifleman John Frank Orman so it is not possible to state his service record. However, from the medal rolls it appears he served solely in the 11th Battalion London Regiment (Finsbury Rifles) which was a Territorial Force battalion of 1908 at Pentonville. He went overseas with the battalion in July 1915, landing at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli, on 11th August 1815 with 162nd Infantry Brigade in the 54th Division. The 11th Battalion London Regiment left Gallipoli on 18th December 1915 and went to Egypt from where it served in Palestine and Beirut. Rifleman Orman was discharged on 19th January 1919. He was promoted to corporal. He qualified for the 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. For the Division's engagements see:
http://www.1914-1918.net/54div.htm
Part of the 11th Battalion's war diary can be downloaded from The National Archives (charges apply). See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%2211+Battalion+London+regiment%22
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Lee Thompson {Email left}
Location: Birmingham
Date: Monday 23rd March 2015 at 7:26 PM
Hi alan a friend asked me if i could research a relative that was killed in ww1. His name was frederick whall. Service number 10780 2nd bn royal munster fusileers. He died sadly just a month before the end of the war on 4/10/1918. Any information would be greatly appreciated regards lee thompson.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 24th March 2015 at 12:09 AM

Dear Lee,
No individual service record has survived for Frederick Whall so it is not possible to state his military service. The Army medal rolls show he first enlisted in the 7th (Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards as a private with the regimental number 7115. He first served in a theatre of war (France) on 13th October 1914. That was the date the 7th Dragoon Guards landed at Marseilles from their station at Secunderabad, having left Bombay on 10th September 1914. He was therefore probably a regular soldier. In the 1911 census he was recorded as a 16-year-old brass worker, of Aston, Birmingham, so he could have enlisted at the age of 18. The 7th Dragoon Guards served in the Secunderabad Cavalry Brigade attached to the Indian Corps in France and Flanders. On 23rd December 1914 the 7th Dragoon Guards joined the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division.
The next entry on his medal roll showed he was attached to the 3rd Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment on 21st May 1915. The 3rd Battalion of any regiment was its depot and training battalion. The next, undated, entry stated he served with the 7th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers; the 6th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers and the 2nd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers, each with the regimental number 10780.
So, at some stage in 1915 or 1916 he joined the 7th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers which was stationed at Salonika with 30th Infantry Brigade in the 10th Division. The 7th Battalion was then absorbed by the 6th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers on 3rd November 1916 at Salonika. He then served in the 6th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers at Salonika. In September 1917 the 6th Battalion moved to Egypt. On 30th April 1918 the 6th Battalion left 10th Division and sailed to France arriving at Marseilles on 1st June 1918. Four days later the 6th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers was absorbed by the 2nd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers, on 5th June 1918. From 16th June 1918, the 2nd Battalion served on Lines of Communication in France and Flanders. On 15th July 1918 the 2nd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers joined 150th Infantry Brigade in the 50th Division.
Frederick Whall was initially recorded as having died on 8th (sic) October 1918 (Battle of Cambrai 1918) and was first buried with other members of the Royal Munster Fusiliers at Gouy British Cemetery (Graves registration). Later records amended the date to the 4th October 1918 (The Battle of the Beaurevoir Line 3rd 5th October 1918). His original grave was later exhumed in 1930 and moved to its present location at Templeux-le-Geurard British Cemetery. The CWGC says: "Gouy British cemetery (Aisne), was in the hamlet of Rue-Neuve (or Rue-du-Moulin), on the road from Gouy to Estrees. It stood in a paddock among pasture fields, close to a farmhouse. It was made by the recently reconstituted 50th Division in October 1918, and contained the graves of 127 soldiers from the United Kingdom (almost all from that Division) and one from Australia; the dates of death were the 3rd-10th October, except for one soldier who died on the 18th. Le Catelet and Gouy were captured by the 50th Division on the 3rd October 1918."
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/337884/WHALL,%20F
Frederick Whall qualified for the 1914 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. The medals were sent to his brother at an address in Miller Street, Birmingham in 1923.
For the actions of the various divisions see:
http://www.1914-1918.net/britdivs.htm
Please let your friend know who researched the information for you.
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Lynda {Email left}
Location: Portsmouth
Date: Monday 23rd March 2015 at 9:01 AM
Hi Alan'
My uncle John Frederick White was in ww1 royal army medical corps.he died stretcher bearing on 17july 1917.

I have been trying to locate his death plaque and medals to no avail.
None of the family appear to know where they went
I have just been involved with our museum in displaying some things he sent back from the front line along with the only picture I have.
Was wondering if anyone may have photoes of the 24battalion.
Many thanks
Lynda
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 23rd March 2015 at 4:16 PM

Dear Lynda,
There is a record of a John Frederick White of the Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC) who was killed in action, aged 20, on 31st July 1917. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt of Honour recorded he was the son of John and Mary White, of Landport, Portsmouth. He enlisted on August 9th 1915 in the 3rd/3rd Wessex Field Ambulance RAMC with the regimental number 2375. The original 3rd Wessex Field Ambulance was a pre-war Territorial Force unit which was sent to France in November 1914. During the war it was renumbered as 26th Field Ambulance RAMC. Meanwhile, at home, The 3rd Wessex Field Ambulance was expanded after the outbreak of war with second and third units which then took fractional titles. The 3rd/3rd Wessex Field Ambulance trained recruits at Clipstone Camp, Notts, in 1916 and provided battle casualty replacements for the 1st/3rd Wessex Field Ambulance and (from February 1917) the 2nd/3rd Wessex Field Ambulance. Private White was sent to France on 9th August 1916 as part of a draft of RAMC reinforcements and after some weeks at the 1st Territorial base depot at Rouen he was posted to the 24th Field Ambulance RAMC (8th Division) in France on 4th October 1916. On 10th December 1916 he was posted to the 26th Field Ambulance RAMC, also in 8th Division. His regimental number was changed to 461550 early in 1917 when all Territorial Force soldiers were allotted new numbers. He was killed in action serving in West Flanders with the 26th Field Ambulance RAMC on 31st July 1917 (The Battle of Pilckem).
He qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal which would have been sent to his next-of-kin.
Group photographs might have survived at the Army Medical Services Museum
http://www.ams-museum.org.uk/museum/
or at the Wellcome Library
https://wellcomelibrary.org/search-the-catalogues/
The war diary of 26th Field Ambulance is available to download (£3.30) from
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352476
The diary for 24th Field Ambulance (£3.30) is at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352473
You can register your interest in his medals at:
http://www.lostmedals.co.uk/
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Lynda
Date: Monday 23rd March 2015 at 6:02 PM

Thank you so much Alan,
Was not aware of the change to regimental number,very interesting.

I will try to get some photographs from th sites you have mentioned.
Thanks again
Lynda
Reply from: Kerry Milutin
Date: Monday 6th April 2015 at 5:41 PM

I'm looking for information on my g grandfather died ww1 1918 102Bn thank you . Joseph Willette 102Bn CEF. Kerry Milutin 706 1/2 Decatur St Bakersfield California 93008 USA
I give permission to use my Gmail address
kerrymilutin5 @gmail.com
Posted by: Brian {Email left}
Location: Edinburgh
Date: Saturday 21st March 2015 at 4:51 PM
Can anyone please provide any information about my grandfather William Strong who served as RSM (so I've been told) at Piershill Barracks Edinburgh late 1920s till posted to Farningham in early 1930s? Any info would be much appreciated

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