Alan Greveson's World War 1 Forum (Page 24)

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Posted by: Jeremy Thornton {Email left}
Location: France
Date: Thursday 16th October 2014 at 7:16 PM
Hi Alan,
You may remember previously helping me with information about my Grandfather Vernon Thornton who served in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. After a recent visit to the KOYLI museum in Doncaster and receipt of his Medal Roll, I am now positive that he served in the 12th, 2/5th, 1st and 1/5th (5th from Feb 1918 when the 1/4th and the 2/5th were amagamated with the 1/5th and called the 5th). Whilst I am not sure whether he was called up in the Derby scheme in June 1916, this seems likely due to his age at this time 37 and the fact that he was married with 2 small children. What intigues me is that the first Battalion he served in, the 12th, was a Pioneer Battalion. However, he later went on to serve in the 2/5th, 1st and 1/5th Battalions which were Infantry Battalions. His trade was a wharehouseman in a family rag auctioneers business, so this may have meant he had skills relevent to the Pioneers for a certain period of time?

In order that I can try and work out just when he may have gone to France are you able to tell me how long the initial training would have been in a Pioneer Battalion. I presume that he would have had to have been trained how to shoot etc. Additionally, would this training have been adequate for the later Infantry Battalions he served in. If not would re-training have taken place in France or would he have returned to the UK?

These questions may be outside your scope of expertise but any information you can provide would be helpful.

With kind regards
Jeremy Thornton
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 17th October 2014 at 3:10 PM

Dear Jeremy,
The length of training would depend on which battalion he first served with. Some Pals battalions, raised in September 1914, trained for 15 months from civilian to becoming a soldier at the Front; while the 18-year-old conscripts of 1916 onwards underwent a minimum of 13 weeks' basic training with specialist recruit training battalions.
As we have noted, Vernon Thornton's regimental number was a five-digit number typical of those allotted to men who were mobilized or conscripted in 1916, so he was probably given basic recruit training in a training (Reserve) battalion of the KOYLI.
The 12th Battalion KOYLI was a Pals battalion raised at the expense of the West Yorkshire Coalowners' Association in September 1914. The original men of the battalion had regimental numbers pre-fixed with 12/ within the range 1 to 1000 or more. As original members of the 12th Battalion became casualties, they could be replaced, from March 1916, with soldiers having regimental numbers of five digits. From March 1916, a soldier lost any choice of regiment and had no option as to where he was posted or transferred. The 12th Battalion KOYLI trained as an infantry battalion from September 1914 until May 1915. In May 1915 it was appointed the Pioneer Battalion for the 31st Division. As most of the men were coal-miners they would have needed little additional training to be pioneers. The 12th Battalion KOYLI left England on 6th December 1915 and spent some months in Egypt before being sent to France on 9th March 1916. The 12th Battalion KOYLI was in France from early 1916. From 1st July 1917 to 30th November 1917 they were attached to Fifth Army Troops constructing light railways. It seems unlikely Vernon Thornton would have undergone training with the 12th Battalion KOYLI because that battalion had left England on 6th December 1915, before Vernon was said to have joined the Army. If he enlisted in June 1916, he could only have served with the 12th Battalion KOYLI once it was overseas, and no earlier than October 1916 after his basic training would have finished.
The 5th Battalion KOYLI was a pre-war Territorial Force (T.F.) battalion which was, in theory, already trained before mobilization and embodiment on 4th August 1914. "Embodiment" absorbed the Territorials into Regular Army terms of service for war. The 5th Battalion KOYLI served in France from 12th April 1915 with 62nd Division. Its original members had four-digit T.F. numbers.
The 2nd/5th Battalion KOYLI was created from scratch on 10th September 1914. When the 2nd/5th Battalion was created, the original 5th Battalion at Wakefield, Yorkshire, adjusted its title to the superior fraction of 1st/5th Battalion KOYLI.
The 2nd /5th Battalion KOYLI trained and remained in England until 15th January 1917, but was responsible during that time for providing casualty replacements from England to the 1st/5th Battalion KOYLI in France. After the introduction of conscription in March 1916, the 2/5th Battalion could have received drafts of conscripted men with five-digit numbers. The 2/5th Battalion KOYLI went overseas in its own right as a fighting battalion, landing at Havre, France, on 15th January 1917 and serving with 62nd Division. The 2nd/5th Battalion merged with the 1st/5th Battalion on January 30th 1918.
The 1st Battalion KOYLI served in France from January 1915 with 28th Division and then left for Macedonia arriving in December 1915. The 1st Battalion arrived back in France on 16th July 1918 where it served with 50th Division.
Depending on when a conscripted soldier was enlisted, the period of basic training would have been for a minimum of 13 weeks in a reserve battalion in the UK, including one week's leave, before being posted to another battalion for active service. The minimum period was three months which was required to build physical fitness through Swedish gymnastics and route marches; instil discipline through drill and teach the basic military skills. Men appointed to specialist tasks, such as machine-gunner, would attend a further specialist course of instruction. On arrival overseas, there was a further period of some two weeks' training at a Divisional base camp on the coast. From that base camp a man could be posted to a battalion other than the battalion with which he had arrived, or to a battalion other than the battalion he was originally destined for.
A man who enlisted at the age of 18 would not go overseas until he was 18-and-a-half (officially he could not fight at the Front until aged 19) so he would have spent at least six months training in the UK. Any recruit would spend his time in training until he was posted overseas, so the length of time would be between the time he enlisted and when he was posted.
In your post of October 23rd 2012 you stated Vernon's medal roll recorded he served in 12th, 2/5th, 1st & 5th Battalions [KOYLI] in 187th Brigade of the 62nd Division. Is it possible that "1st & 5th Battalions" was actually the 1st/5th Battalion KOYLI? It could then mean he was first posted overseas to join the 12th Battalion KOYLI in late 1916 and was later posted to 2nd/5th Battalion (existing in France in its own right from 15th January 1917 to 2nd February 1918) before serving in the 1st/5th Battalion KOYLI either before it merged or after. Even after February 1918, the "5th Battalion KOYLI" was still recognised as "1/5 Battalion King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry", even though its title had last its fraction on January 30th 1918.
Vernon's civilian job as a warehouseman would not have been applicable to the pioneers other than as a stores-man. A 37-year-old might well have assisted the Company Quartermaster Serjeant (CQMS) in any battalion, although the age of 37 was well within the range for fighting soldiers. 9
It seems unusual, but not implausible, that a man should have served in four battalions of the KOYLI from late 1916 to 1919. If the "1st Battalion" and "5th Battalion" were, in fact, the "1st/5th Battalion" then it would be plausible that Vernon underwent basic training in England and was first sent overseas in late 1916 to join the 12th Battalion KOYLI, perhaps as a casualty replacement in a draft of reinforcements. Vernon might then have been sent to the 2nd/5th Battalion KOYLI, in 1917, for that battalion to be absorbed into the 1st/5th Battalion KOYLI in 1918, meaning that he might actually have changed battalions only once, from the 12th to the 2nd/5th . Unfortunately, without a service record to show his movements it is not possible to prove his service.
The UK National Archives has digitized many more war diaries this year (£3.30) (4.14 euro). Those of the 2/5 and 1/5 Battalion KOYLI are shown at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%225+battalion+King%27s+own+yorkshire%22
That of the 12th Battalion KOYLI is now available at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%2212+battalion+King%27s+own+yorkshire%22
Those of the 1st Battalion KOYLI:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%221+battalion+King%27s+own+yorkshire%22
Also, The Western Front Association now has an archive of 6.5 million pension record cards (PRCs) which are not available elsewhere. It is possible Vernon could have applied for a pension. The WFA charges an administrative fee for a manual search of the records. See:
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/about-the-wfa/175-pension-records/2961-pension-record-cards-manual-lookup-request.html
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jeremy Thornton
Date: Friday 17th October 2014 at 3:37 PM

Alan,

Absolutely briliant, what a fountain of information you are, wonderful. For your information Vernons Medal Roll card is entered like this:

Remarks:
Reserve Z 28/5/19

Previous Unit(s)
34163 Pte 12th Yorks L.I
2/5th Yorks L.I
1st Yorks L.I
5th Yorks L.I

So unless there was an entry error and the 1st and the 5th were actually the 1/5th then it would seem like he actually did move between Battlions 3 time.

Once again many thanks for this information.

With kind regards

Jeremy Thornton
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 17th October 2014 at 4:45 PM

Dear Jeremy,
If the units in which he served were in the order of his service, it would appear Vernon first served with the 12th Battalion KOYLI and was discharged from the 5th Battalion.
In the early weeks of 1918 the British Army was re-organised with a reduction of the number of battalions within each division. The Regimental History (R.C. Bond) states the 6th and 7th Battalions KOYLI were broken up; the 10th Battalion was mainly absorbed by the 9th Battalion. On 23rd January 1918, 124 men of the 1st/5th Battalion were sent to Fourth Army clearing depot for posting to other battalions while others were posted to the 1st/4th Battalion KOYLI.
It was a shake-up for the regiment.
At the end of February 1918, the 12th Battalion KOYLI was re-organised into a three-company battalion in line with the new Army structure. The senior battalion, the 1st Battalion KOYLI, arrived in France from Salonika in July 1918 reduced in strength through illness with most men suffering malaria; Quinine was a daily ration and the men were given leave to the UK. Vernon probably would not have been with the 1st Battalion KOYLI in Macedonia because the 1st Battalion arrived in France after the 2nd/5th Battalion had ceased to exist, so Vernon must have been in France before the 2nd/5th Battalion amalgamated at the end of January 1918. The 1st Battalion KOYLI re-fitted and trained in France in July and August 1918 and advanced to contact about September 25th 1918.
If Vernon joined the 12th Battalion KOYLI after training in England, it would have been after October 1916. He might have been posted to the 2nd/5th Battalion KOYLI in France before the 12th Battalion was reorganised, or during the January/February 1918 shake-up. He could then have been posted to the 1st Battalion once that Battalion had arrived in France and required weeks of rest and re-fitting because of malaria. The 1st Battalion served with 50th Division in France. The 50th Division returned to the UK for demobilization between December 1918 and March 19th 1919. Vernon's discharge from the Army was probably from the 5th Battalion KOYLI to the Class Z Reserve on May 28th 1919. His time in the 5th Battalion need not have been in action. He could have returned to the 5th Battalion in France or solely in the UK for demobilization. The May 28th 1919 discharge date is quite late in the Spring of 1919, but that might be accounted for if longer-serving men had been discharged earlier in 1919. The Class Z Reserve was for men who would be re-called to the colours if the Armistice with Germany did not hold.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jeremy Thornton
Date: Friday 17th October 2014 at 5:38 PM

Alan,

Thanks again. This now gives me some dates to play with. By the way I have already down loaded all the relevent War Diaries. A lot of the sections are very difficult to read even when printed out being very faded.

Thanks once more.

Jeremy Thornton
Posted by: Sh3bee {Email left}
Location: Essex
Date: Wednesday 15th October 2014 at 2:18 PM
Hello Alan, I've been reading through these pages this afternoon and am hoping you might be able to find some information on my Grandad's army history. Frederick Harry Randall, born 1897 in Mile End. RFA, driver, regiment no. 55197. Medal records show first entry to France 29 July 1915, 15 Star RFA/4/ATB Pg4254, MM RFA/186b Pg17083, British medal RFA/186b Pg17083. He spoke about serving in Sommes, Ypres, Mermansk & Syria, and mentioned Churchill's army. Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to give.

Sh3bee
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 15th October 2014 at 7:19 PM

Dear Sh3bee,
Unfortunately, no individual service record has survived for Frederick Harry Randall so it is not possible to state his wartime service. Many records were destroyed in 1940 during the air raids on London. Without knowing in which battery or batteries of the Royal Artillery he served in it is not possible know where and when he was on active service. The letters MM on his medal card showed he was awarded the gallantry medal The Military Medal for bravery in the field. It is not possible to state how he won the medal as the citations were not published nationally. The award was promulgated in the official publication, "The London Gazette" in a supplement published on 28th January 1918. See:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30498/supplement/1396
Operations at Murmansk were in two phases: the Allied Intervention in North Russia to fight the Bolsheviks and, when that force became hemmed in by ice, the North Russian Relief Force of 1919, which was formed of volunteers who re-enlisted.
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Jonboy {Email left}
Location: Harlow
Date: Wednesday 15th October 2014 at 12:28 PM
Hi Alan
Found some more old paperwork while having clear out, but this person from my Mothers side I cant seem to fit him into my Tree could you help me on this please as I have an old army Attestation of a William George Bartlett who at the time was 18 years and 94 days old. Its very hard to make out a lot but I have his number as 696733 and it looks to read Labour Corps at the time he was living in the Parish of Isleworth Middlesex. I cant work out which Parents he belongs to though which would help me lot if you could come up trumps on this please. By the way my son Luke and I are having a boot sale (weather permitting) all money made will go to the British Legion.

Regards
Jonboy
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 15th October 2014 at 7:19 PM

Dear Jonboy,
It is not possible to positively identify a person's ancestry without sight of their birth certificate and parents' marriage certificate. What is clear is that William George Bartlett's next-of-kin in 1919 was recorded as Mrs Louisa Bartlett of 36 Dancer Road, Richmond, Surrey. He was single in 1919, so the next-of-kin might have been his mother. He was attested at Hounslow for short service until 30th April 1920 on June 2nd 1919, stating he was born at Isleworth and was 18 years and 94 days old which would have given him a birthday about March 7th 1901.
A birth of a William George Bartlett was registered at Brentford Registration District (which included Isleworth) in July-September 1901 (GRO Births Brentford Vol 3a page 59).
The baptism of a William George Bartlett was recorded at All Souls St Margaret's-on-Thames, Hounslow, on 25th August 1901, the son of William George Bartlett, a labourer of 58 Talbot Road, and his wife Louisa. But that is circumstantial evidence. There is no immediately obvious entry for him in the 1911 census of England and Wales.
In 1919, William George Bartlett was employed as a carman with James Hickey and Sons in Sandycombe Road, Richmond, Surrey. He joined the Eastern Command Labour Centre at Sutton, Surrey, on 4th June 1919 and was posted to France for exhumation duties on 17th June 1919 where he served with 712 Company Labour Corps. He had been enlisted because of the demand for "men for exhumation" promulgated in an Army Order in March 1919. He served 96 days in France where he was admitted to hospital with defective vision which was not attributable to military service. He was treated at 41 Stationary Hospital (at Le Cateau from November 1918) and returned to the UK on 20th September 1919 where he was treated at The Royal Victoria Hospital, Netley, for double optic atrophy. He was discharged after 149 days' military service on 28th October 1919.
See also "Post-war clearance of the battlefields" at:
http://www.1914-1918.net/died.htm
I hope you and Luke have a successful boot sale.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jonboy
Date: Thursday 16th October 2014 at 4:15 PM

Hi Alan
Thanks for that it has helped a hell of a lot I think now I should apply for a couple of Birth Certificates and take it from there. Many thanks.
Regards
Jonboy
Posted by: Jonboy {Email left}
Location: Harlow
Date: Tuesday 14th October 2014 at 3:11 PM
Hi Alan
Hope all is well with you, I know we have communicated in the past over Walter Sidney Bartlett, but while clearing out my Desk I came across a piece of paper with the following written on it : Walter Sidney Bartlett Born 1887 Hounslow. Attested at London 5th October 1905 for the Grenadier Guards aged 18. Service No:12305 but next to that is the number 16882. It also states discharged on the 7th October 190 ?, hopefully you can help me on this one please.

Kind regards
Jonboy
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 14th October 2014 at 8:22 PM

Dear Jonboy,
"You're twice the man in the Grenadiers" (soldier and ceremony).
Individual service records of Guardsmen are not in the public domain. Details may be released to the proven next-of-kin on application to the regimental archives who charge £30 for a search. Applications in writing to: Regimental Archivist, Regimental Headquarters, Grenadier Guards, Wellington Barracks, Birdcage Walk, London SW1E 6HQ. A cheque should be made payable to "Regimental Adjutant Grenadier Guards".
The regimental number 12305 and the number 16882 do not match any Bartlett in the Army medal rolls for the First World War.
There was a Walter S. Bartlett regimental number 12391 Grenadier Guards who went to France on 6th October 1914 with the 1st Battalion. He could have re-joined as a mobilized reservist had he been discharged in 190x, however, index-cards provide no biographical information. He became a corporal and qualified for the 1914 Star with Mons Clasp; the British War Medal and the Victory Medal (medal rolls index-card). In 1914, the Battalion served in the 7th Division protecting bridges and other places that would help the withdrawal of the Belgian army to the west from Antwerp. Following that the infantry were the first British troops to occupy Ypres. On 4th August 1915 the 1st Grenadier Guards joined 3rd Guards Brigade in the Guards Division. See:
http://www.1914-1918.net/gdiv.htm
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jonboy
Date: Wednesday 15th October 2014 at 9:15 AM

Hi Alan
Ok thanks I will apply to Wellington Barracks via my Uncle Tom Bartlett who is still with us at the age of 82 which I presume he would be the next of kin as he is the only member of the Family still alive.

Regards
Jonboy
Posted by: Andy M {Email left}
Location: Lancashire Uk
Date: Monday 13th October 2014 at 10:28 AM
Dear Alan
Thanks for looking at another relative and have just discovered 2 more? 2 brothers.
Found his service record on Ancestry...
Herbert Walter Woodrow
1884 - 10 Oct 1916
Killed in France 10th Oct 1916
Private
East Yorkshire Regiment
7th Battalion
D company
No. 12106
Noted at Thiepval memorial, Plot. Pier and Face 2.c
# 12379289
Trying to find where he was killed and Is there any way we can find out if there is a grave? unable to find any reference to one?
Or do we need to look into all the individual Somme battlefield cemeteries.

Also his brother.
Bertie Edward Woodrow
Born 1894
Just references Canada 1914-1918

Thanks so much again
Andy M & Family
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 13th October 2014 at 5:24 PM

Dear Andy,
The Thiepval Memorial is "The Memorial to the Missing of the Somme". It records the names of more than 72,000 men who died on the Somme battlefields of France up to 20th March 1918 and who have no known grave. If the Graves Registration Unit had no knowledge of his whereabouts and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has no record of an identifiable grave for Herbert Walter Woodrow it is unlikely that could be changed.
A Bertie Woodrow was recorded in the April 1911 census as a boy, aged 16, born Norwich, under training at His Majesty's Royal Navy Training Establishment at Shotley near Ipswich (HMS "Ganges"). After boy service at "Ganges" from February 28th 1911 he served as a man in the Royal Navy from his 18th birthday in 1912 with a recorded date of birth as June 5th 1894. He signed-on for 12 years to serve until 1924. He served on various ships and shore locations (HMS "Pembroke" which was Chatham Royal Navy Barracks). During the war he served on HMS "St George", a depot ship in the Seventh Destroyer Flotilla (Home Waters and Atlantic) from 25th August 1914 to April 1915. In May - November 1915 he served at Portsmouth on HMS "Derwent". In March 1916 he was placed on the crew of HMS "Lancaster" which then joined the Pacific Fleet in April 1916. He deserted the Royal Navy ("run Lancaster") on May 29th 1916 and on August 29th 1916 he enlisted in the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force at Victoria, British Columbia, number 258814 under the name of John Killigrew (his father's given name and his mother's maiden name) stating his birthday as June 5th 1892 (sic). He claimed he had been in the Royal Navy nine years and had served in "The East Anglia Regiment" for one and a half years. There was no such regiment at the time, although there had been an East Anglia Battery of the Royal Artillery and an East Anglia Field Ambulance RAMC.
His full Canadian service record is held in Canada and can be purchased by ordering a copy to be printed from the Library and Archives Canada (LAC), although it might be digitized shortly as part of the Library's centenary events. The front and back page of his attestation paper in the 211th Battalion Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) can be seen online with an Ancestry worldwide subscription or by searching the LAC database at:
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/canadian-expeditionary-force.aspx
His Royal Navy service record can be purchased from the UK National Archives for £3.30, see:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6863832
He was trained as a signaller in the Royal Navy and might have served as a sapper-signaller with a Canadian Military Engineers divisional signal company in the CEF.
258814 Bertie Ed. Woodrow, of 211 Battalion CEF returned to England in 1919 and was dispersed from the Canadian Discharge Depot at Buxton in Derbyshire on 30th August 1919 intended for sailing on SS "Cedric" but he was eventually dispersed on 19th September 1919 and sailed on SS "Baltic" for Halifax, Nova Scotia, on September 27th 1919. His intended address was St Portage, Wisconsin, USA. He was married. (Library and Archives Canada; Ottawa, Ontario, Canada; Passenger Lists, 1865-1935; Series: RG 76-C; Roll: T-14797.)
There is a record of a Bertie Woodrow, seaman, no relatives, aged 27 (born 1892) resident of Halifax, N.S. passing from Canada via Port Huron, Michegan, in October 1919 for intended residence in America (Border Crossings: From Canada to U.S., 1895-1956). The Aliens' registration card for this entry stated he was born at Norwich and had been in California from 1911 to 1914, which was probably untrue. "Wife Alice, 23, born London" was struck out. He had previously entered Victoria in August 1916 and served with the CEF (National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), Washington, D.C.; Manifests of Alien Arrivals at Port Huron, Michigan, February 1902-December 1954; Record Group: 85, Records of the Immigration and Naturalization Service; Microfilm Serial: A3441; Microfilm Roll: 21.)
Bert Woodrow, a streetcar workman, age 25, English, immigration in 1911, and wife Alice, age 23, immigration 1919, born England were recorded in the 1920 US Census living at 5025 Sheridan Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Going back to the SS "Baltic" passenger manifest in September 1919, there was an Alice Woodrow "Canadian Military dependents" on board. A Bertie E. Woodrow married an Alice Heath in April-June 1919 at West Ham, Essex (GRO Marriages vol 4a page 772).
(The birth and death, in infancy, of an Albert Edward Woodrow was registered in Norwich in 1893. If he had been the son of John and Frances Woodrow, it is possible Bertie Edward, born a year later, was named after him.)
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Andy M
Date: Monday 13th October 2014 at 6:05 PM

Unbelievable!
Thanks so much!
I will be updating membership to include worldwide soon now,
Fantastic information, greatly appreciated!
More donations to British Legion on its way.
Thank you so much Alan.
Have discovered 7 relatives so far , 2 in ww2 (both survived), 4 in ww1 ( 2 killed in action, 2 survived) and one in military prison in 1871?
So much to research?
Now to research a John Samuel Woodrow DOB: 1847 in Millbank military prison in 1871?
Thanks again!
Andy and Family.
Posted by: Brian {Email left}
Location: Bolton
Date: Friday 10th October 2014 at 7:11 PM
Sorry his name wasJames Gore born Coppull lancashire 1892
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 10th October 2014 at 8:55 PM

Dear Brian,
Citations for the Military Medal were presented to the soldier with the medal. Occasionally, the award of the medal might be acknowledged in a battalion war diary or in the local newspapers of the time.
James Gore, born 1892, of 2 Regent Street, Coppull, enlisted on 25th January 1915 and joined the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. On 15th November 1915, he was transferred to a garrison battalion of the Cheshire Regiment, as he was medically graded B1 (fit for service in garrisons at home and overseas, able to march five miles, but not fit enough to fight at the Front). On 5th May 1916 he was transferred to the 4th Garrison Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, regimental number 42527. The Battalion went to France as Army Troops on 7th June 1916 at the disposal of GHQ Third Army. In 1918 it was re-styled the 4th Garrison Guard Battalion serving with 176th Brigade in the 59the Division. In July 1918 it was renumbered the 26th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers and ended the war near Tournai in Belgium.
During his career James was charged for being absent; being drunk and gambling. He was discharged from the Army on January 16th 1919 in England. The award of the Military Medal was announced in a 60 page alphabetical list in the official record "The London Gazette" published 14th May as a supplement of 13th May 1919. Ten men of the 26th Battalion RWF received the Military Medal at the same time. James was sent the Military Medal on 10th June 1919. See:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31338/supplement/6028
The war diary of the 4th Garrison Battalion RWF is held at the National Archives at Kew in Catalogue reference WO 95/409 "Army Troops: 4 (Garrison) Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers". It has not been digitised. However, the diary of the 26th Battalion RWF from May 1918 is available to download for a fee of £3.30. See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355196

With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Brian
Date: Friday 10th October 2014 at 9:25 PM

Dear Alan
Thank you so much, I couldn't imagine my Grandfather being drunk or a gambler but during those awful conditions no body could blame him.
Thank you very much for the information it will help in furthering my investigations
Thanks again
Brian
Posted by: Brian {Email left}
Location: Bolton
Date: Friday 10th October 2014 at 7:08 PM
My Grandfather born in Coppull lancashire1892 won the military medal in the first world war, I thought he was in the Lancashire fusilliers but it looks like he was in the Welch fussiliers. I would like to find out what he did to be awarded this medal . I would really appreciate any help.
Thanks Regards
Brian
Posted by: Perry {Email left}
Location: Wotton Glos
Date: Wednesday 8th October 2014 at 10:21 PM
Dear Alan, I wonder if you can help me. I am looking for info on my great uncle his name was Walter Diment and I believe he was in the 1st Somerset Light Infantry .His regiment number was 15544, and the date of entry to war was 3-dec-1914 which is the same day as his brother Thomas Diment. Thomas was killed but Walter came home. Could you tell me where Walter would have been and was he with his brother. any info would be appreciated Thanks Veronica Perry
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 9th October 2014 at 3:25 PM

Dear Veronica,
Unfortunately, no individual service record has survived for Walter Diment so it is not possible to state his wartime service. An Army medal rolls index card showed he served with the 1st Battalion Prince Albert's Somerset Light Infantry (S.L.I.) in France from 3rd December 1914 and also with an unidentified battalion of the Hampshire Regiment. The 1st Battalion S.L.I. had been in France since 22nd August 1914, so Walter (and Thomas) might have been part of a draft of reinforcements. It is not possible to state how long Walter remained with the 1st Battalion S.L.I. or when he was transferred to the Hampshire Regiment.
It would appear likely that Thomas and Walter initially served together in the 1st S.L.I..
The 1st Battalion S.L.I.'s war diary has been digitised and can be downloaded from the National Archives at a cost of £3.30 for each section. See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%221+Battalion+somerset+light+infantry%22
As Walter survived the war it is possible he applied for a pension. The Western Front Association holds an archive of 6.5 million pension record cards (PRCs) which are not available elsewhere. They charge an administrative fee for a manual search of the records. See:
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/about-the-wfa/175-pension-records/2961-pension-record-cards-manual-lookup-request.html
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Veronica Perry
Date: Thursday 9th October 2014 at 9:13 PM

Thank you Alan , The info you gave me will certainly help me to find all I can about these two Great Uncles. I will carry on with my research Thanks once again
Posted by: Julie Wilson {Email left}
Location: Pontefract
Date: Tuesday 7th October 2014 at 9:01 PM
Hi Alan I wonder if you could help. I am searching for information as to my Grandfathers enlistment in The Liverpool Regiment during the Great war. He was born Henry Kerrins in 1898. at Fryston. From the census returns the name Kerrins was wrote down by the numerators as Curran. The family moved to Castleford and the story goes that he ran away and joined The Liverpool Regiment during the Great war. I have a copy of a certificate saying he was honourably discharged on 27th 1919 disabled in The Great war Henry Curran Service number 53355. It was said that he was hit by shrapnel in his right leg in France and was in hospital in Portsmouth where they wanted to amputate his leg but a Doctor managed to save it. He had a steel plate in his leg. Did he enlist at Liverpool? and where would he have served in France? would be most grateful if you could help

Regards Julie Wilson
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 8th October 2014 at 2:40 PM

Dear Julie,
The birth of a Henry Karrins was recorded in the Pontefract registration district of Yorkshire in 1898 (GRO Births, Pontefract, Jan-Mar 1898; Vol 9C; page 112). Ferry Fryston was included in the Pontefract registration district.
In the 1901 census enumerators' books Henry Kerrings, born at Fryston, was recorded as the four year old son of Micheal (sic) and Bridget Kerrings at Chapel Street, Castleford (RG 13/4305 folio 96 page 38). In the 1911 census household return, he was recorded as Henrney (sic) Carrins, a 13 year old schoolboy born at Fryston, living at Castle Street, Castleford. (RG14/PN27504 RG78PN1574 RD505 SD4 ED18 SN202). In the 1891 census his father, Michael, was recorded as Michael Kerrins, born Walsall, Staffs., about 1864, living at Smith Street, Ferry Fryston (RG12/3757 folio 68 page 7). Michael Kerrins had apparently married Bridget McQue at Walsall in June-August 1885 (GRO Marriages Vol 6b page 843).
Unfortunately, there are no surviving military records which show Henry Curran 53355 Liverpool Regiment with any biographical information that could positively identify him. It is not possible to state his military service, as there is no individual service record for him. An Army medal rolls index-card recorded he qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. As he did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star for service overseas before December 1915, he would have served overseas from some date after January 1st 1916. A silver War Badge roll showed Henry Curran 53355 was discharged from the Army on 27th February 1919, aged 20.
It is possible Henry had enlisted under a different or incorrectly recorded name. The death of a Henry Carrins was recorded at Pontefract in April-June 1951, aged 53, Vol 2c page 515.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Julie Wilson
Date: Wednesday 8th October 2014 at 6:53 PM

Alan Thank you so much for the information very much appreciated. A donation will be made to your charity

Regards

Julie Wilson
Posted by: Jonboy {Email left}
Location: Harlow
Date: Tuesday 7th October 2014 at 6:59 PM
Hi Alan
Long time no write to you, could you please find any info you can on my Gt Uncle Albert Thomas Adcock who I think was killed in action while with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, his service No was 265361.
Kind Regards
Jonboy
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 7th October 2014 at 8:52 PM

Dear Jonboy,
I hope you are keeping well.
No individual service record has survived for Albert Thomas Adcock so it is not possible to be precise about his military service. "Soldiers Died in the Great War" (HMSO 1921) recorded he was born at St Nicholas, Nuneaton, Warwickshire and was killed in action on December 5th 1917 while serving with the 2nd/7th Battalion The Royal Warwickshire Regiment. He was a private with the regimental number 265361 which was a six-digit Territorial Force number issued in the first weeks of 1917 when all Territorials were re-numbered.
An Army medal rolls index card recorded him with that number as qualifying for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. The detail recorded for the British War Medal was supposed to record the particulars of the man when he first went overseas. As there is no four-digit regimental number recorded on the card it suggests Albert might not have been mobilized or have gone overseas until January 1917 or later. However, it is also possible the record only stated his second regimental number. So, it is not possible to state when he was enlisted or when he went to France.
The 2nd/7th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment was raised at Coventry in October 1914 and trained in the Chelmsford area before moving to Salisbury Plain in March 1916. The Battalion went to France on 21st May 1916. Its reinforcements would have come from the 3rd/7th Battalion (7th Reserve Battalion) based at Ludgershall.
Albert Thomas appears to have been born in 1897 (GRO Births, Nuneaton Warwickshire, Apr-Jun 1897, Vol 6d page 493). The 1901 census recorded him as the son of William Adcock, a railway platelayer, and his wife Eliza. By 1911, Eliza was a widow and her eldest son, William, a railway platelayer with the L&NW Railway, aged 25, single, signed the household return as head of the household. Albert was shown as a 14 year old errand boy for a chemist's shop. The family lived at 29, Weddington Road, Nuneaton.
The origin of Adock is a Scots derivation of the Hebrew name Adam.
The 2nd/7th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment served in the 182nd Infantry Brigade with the 61st Division. See:
http://www.1914-1918.net/61div.htm
The date of Albert's death was during the Battle of Cambrai which had begun on November 20th 1917. The 61st Division was involved in repulsing an enemy counter-attack in a few days' of fierce fighting at La Vacquerie. See:
http://www.1914-1918.net/bat21.htm
The war diary of the battalion can be downloaded for a fee of £3.30 from the National Archives:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355333
Albert has no marked grave and is commemorated on Panel 3 of the Cambrai Memorial at Louveral, France. The memorial was unveiled in 1930.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jonboy
Date: Tuesday 7th October 2014 at 9:21 PM

Hi Alan
As always many thanks, a Donation will be in the Box at my local British Legion.
Regards
Jonboy

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