The World War Forum (Page 195)

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Posted by: Julie {Email left}
Location: West Sussex
Date: Friday 20th January 2012 at 1:07 PM
Hi Alan,

Just a quick note with regard to Val's post dated 8th January. You kindly forwarded my email to Val so that she could contact me and it has been confirmed that we are second cousins (her Grandfather and my Grandfather were brothers). What an amazing coincidence, my sister Helene (see post 8th January) and I have been trying to find a relation of our Grandfather for many years without success. How strange that they should post on the same day to this forum, what do you think the chances of that were...more than million to one?

Thank you again,

Julie

(I donated to Royal British Legion online as it was easier than posting a cheque).

Posted by: Pete {Email left}
Location: Stone Staffordshire
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 2:09 PM
Hi Alan,
I would be very grateful for any information you can shed on my Grandfather's war service.
George Toole, from Birmingham, enlisted on 15 March, 1914 and his War Medal Roll gives his number asT4/213708.
He was awarded the Silver War Badge under KR 392 xvia, which I understand is discharge for wounds or sickness.
His discharge date is given as 15 March 1919.
According to the 1918 Absent Voter List he was in 856 Horse Transport Company, attached to the 28th Division and I think he served in Salonika.

Many thanks,
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 6:28 PM

Dear Pete,
The surviving records for George Toole provide conflicting evidence.
The Silver War Badge nominal roll recorded he enlisted on 15th March 1914. If that is correct, he would have been either a part-time Territorial soldier or a regular soldier at the outbreak of war in August 1914. His army medal rolls index card showed he qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. As he did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star for service overseas before December 31st 1915 he did not serve abroad until after January 1st 1916.
Had he been a regular soldier one would have expected him to serve abroad at the outbreak of war. He may therefore have been a part-time Territorial soldier. His army number was pre-fixed with T4 which stood for horse transport in the ASC of Kitchener's wartime Fourth New Army. A pre-war regular soldier would not have been allotted a T4 number, as he would have been allotted a pre-war number in March 1914.
The absent voters list apparently recorded him as being with 856 Horse Transport Company ASC. I have not seen that record. An act of Parliament passed on 6 February, 1918 allowed servicemen to register to vote in the constituency of their home address. The first lists were published on 15 October, 1918 from applications received up to 18 August, 1918. The second list was published on 15 April, 1919. Depending on which list he was entered, the information dates only from mid-1918 to 1919. The absent voters list only provides information for the last few months of the war, so George's service history from 1914-1918 in not known as there is no guarantee he served continually in one comapny.

Many soldiers served with different units throughout the war and many units changed between divisions, so without an individual service record it is impossible to track a man's movements.

The 28th Divisional Train ASC was formed from 120, 121, 122 and 123 Companies ASC who originally served in 13th Division until November 1915. Chris Baker's website, The Long Long Trail, states: "It moved to Egypt in November 1915 and joined 28th Division. A Divisional Transport and Supply Column was formed for the Division in Mesopotamia. On 1 August 1918, the Brigade Transport and Supply Columns from 38th and 40th Brigade merged with it, at which point this unit once again became known as 13th Divisional Train."

It is therefore possible that if the original divisional train went back to 13th Division, a new train joined 28th Division. The National Archives places 856 Company ASC in the 28 Divisional Train with their war diaries held in catalogue reference WO 95/4912, dated 1915-1919.

To confuse matters further the 170th Company etc ASC served with 28th Division for a while. They came from London and moved to 28th Division in December 1914, then to 33rd Division in November 1915 when 28th sailed for Salonika. Their ward diaries are: "28 Division Divisional Train (170, 171, 172, 173 Companies A.S.C.) Date: 1915. (WO 95/2272).

So, you can see that knowing which company a man was in is no help without having accurate dates. If George was a Territorial soldier before the war in Birmingham he may well have served with the part-time Territorial ASC of the South Midland Division. He was a married man with a child and may not have volunteered for "Imperial" (Overseas) service at the outbreak of war which would have placed him in the second line Territorial formations of the ASC in the South Midland Division (2nd South Midland Division) which became the 61st Division. This Division sailed for France in May 1916 with the 61st Divisional Train ASC composed of 521, 522, 523 and 524 Companies ASC.
While there is a logic that suggests George could have been with the South Midland ASC Territorials there is no evidence for it, but it would account for the medal card showing an initial deployment in 1916. He was discharged under Para 392 xvi (a) King's Regulations which was for a soldier found by a medical board to be no longer physically fit. He was discharged through sickness, shown on the SWB nominal roll by ditto marks under "sickness" at the top of the column.

Some primary evidence for his service prior to 1918 is required. Local newspapers in the Birmingham Local Studies Library may have reported his wartime service or the deployment of the 61st Division.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Pete
Date: Friday 20th January 2012 at 11:13 AM

Hi Alan,

thank you so much for your prompt and full reply. It has given me some other avenues to explore.
The absent voter list I referred to is dated October 1st, 1918.

I have one photograph and two postcards that show my Grandfather in uniform.
The first postcard is postmarked 2 July, 1916 Catterick Camp and shows my grandfather and a group of men outside a hut. The message to his wife confirms they have been training and apologises that they have not cleaned up.
The second postcard has not been used so is blank on the reverse and undated.
It shows my grandfather and 9 other men outside a pitched mess tent. All have Royal Warwickshire Cap badges and appear to be a group of NCO's.
Six of the men have three stripes, one with a crown above. One is a lance corporal, one appears to be an officer with a swagger stick and the rear rank, my grandfather and another man have their sleeves behind the men in front. Thus I cannot see his rank.

The photograph is a family one with my grandfather and his two cousins. In this his cap badge appearss to be ASC, it is not RWR.

I did not know my grandfather as he died before I was born. My father, his second son, was born on 24 March, 1914.
That makes it 9 days after he enlisted, according to the records.
I did know my grandmother and I am fairly convinced that he would have had an entry in the Victoria Cross Roll if he had enlisted at that stage in her labour :-)
Again many thanks for your help and I will see if the Birmingham Archives can shed any more light.

Best Regards
Posted by: Bella {No contact email}
Location: Esher
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 10:40 AM
Dear Alan,

Sorry for botherig you yet again but have come to a full stop.

A Louis Johnson born 1888 Otford, Kent, residing at his Grandfather's house at Castle Farm Cottages, Otford (I don't know who his parent's were) on the night of the census 1891. Traced him on 1901 census age 13 INMATE! in the civil parish of Southwark St.Saviour but no trace of him after that. It would indicate he was in prison, would that be right?

Your expertise would be greatly valued.

Kind regards.

Bella
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 3:46 PM

Dear Bella,
The Louis Johnson in the 1891 census could be a child of any of the Johnson family. He may have been the child of a son or he could have been an illegitimate child of a daughter. His birth certificate would provide the answer. It is probably: Lewis Johnson, Jan-Mar 1888 Sevenoaks vol 2a page 653.
In 1901 he was clearly shown as a pupil inmate at the Southwark Boys Home, an industrial school in Southwark Street. He was a typical part-time scholar shown as "mng (morning) scholar aftn (afternoon) printer's compositor (type-setter).
He does not appear in the 1911 census and he does not appear to have died between 1901 and 1911.

Children in homes were often sent abroad under the guise of "overseas settlement" which was a polite way of saying they were despatched overseas to relieve the taxpayer the burden of looking after them. These children were known as "Home Children". The Southwark Boys Home participated in this scheme and took advantage of a distribution home established in Toronto, Canada.

The ship's manifest for SS Dominion which left Liverpool for Canada on 11 May 1902 showed a large number of children travelling in a group. Among them was a Lewis Johnson, age 15, bound for Toronto. His arrival in Canada was recorded among Home Children landed at Toronto. See the Library and Archives of Canada website:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/001015-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=53305&&PHPSESSID=fdjh0eg2tmibcn6gcqittdiap0

Kind regards
Alan
Reply from: Bella
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 4:04 PM

Dear Alan

Thank you so much.

I shall delve further, couldn't do it without you.

Kind regards.

Bella

Posted by: Deborah Barr {Email left}
Location: Rudgwick
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 9:13 PM
Hi again Alan,
Please may I ask another question?
My grandfather Alexander Donald Forbes (bn 1893 Wester Craigland, Rosemarkie, Ross & Cromarty, Aberdeenshire) apparently joined the Royal Garrison Artillery in Spring 1915 and went to the Western Front where he was injured. (He survived and died in 1970) A cannot find anything on him at all regarding his Military Service.
Are you able to help please?
kind regards
Deb
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 9:50 PM

Dear Deborah,
Unfortunately it is not possible to identify an Alexander Forbes of the Royal Garrison Artillery with the information you have. You would need to know his regimental number to start a search as there were at least five men of that name who served with the RGA. Even with his number it would not be possible to suggest his military service unless an individual record had survived and there does not appear to be one for an Alexander Forbes born in 1893.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Deborah
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 10:00 PM

Oh well, back to the drawing board!
Thanks very much for looking Alan.
kind regards
Debs
Reply from: Debs
Date: Saturday 10th November 2012 at 4:18 PM

Dear Alan,
Further to your kind help back in January I have continued my search. My grandfather Alexander Donald Forbes had a brother Roderick born 1897. He was easy to find as he was mentioned in Despatches 30 March 1916. He was in the 119th Batt Royal Garrison Artillery with a Regt no. of 365332.
Looking at the Alexanders there is one with a Regt no. of 365327 - only five numbers different to Rodericks who was also in the 119th Batt, RGA.
Do you think it likely that I have found my grandfathers records? Is there anywhere I can look for info?
kind regards
Debs
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th November 2012 at 6:25 PM

Dear Debs,
There is no evidence for either men serving in a 119th Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery. The two men with similar regimental numbers have medal index cards which show that they belonged to Territorial Force batteries of the RGA. They served as gunner (Roderick) and Lance-corporal (Alexander) and had six digit Territorial Force numbers in the range 365001-368000 which were allotted to the North Scottish (City of Aberdeen) Fortress RGA in March 1917. This Battery became the 67th Siege Battery RGA. No other regimental number is marked on the medal cards which implies the two men first went abroad after March 1917 once those longer numbers had been allotted to them as the British War Medal was issued in the name and number of the regiment with which a man first went abroad. The qualification for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal was recorded on the RGA (TF) medal roll numbered RGA/119B which does not immediately identify with which unit of the RGA the men served. The medal roll is kept at the UK National Archives at Kew, Surrey, in Catalogue reference WO329/266 entitled "Royal Garrison Artillery other ranks: medal rolls RGA/119B; RGA/120B; RGA/121B. Pages 1819-2121. British War Medal and Victory Medal."

The only obvious reference to a Forbes in the "London Gazette" of March 30th 1916 was for a Sergeant R Forbes with the regimental number 28225 in the 7th Siege Battery RGA who was awarded the DCM on 30 March 1916. He was sergeant Robert Forbes who was later commissioned as an officer. He had served in France since October 1914.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Debs
Date: Saturday 10th November 2012 at 6:40 PM

Hi Alan,
So I'm wrong on both counts then?!
I got the info about Roderick from this:
War Records - 1914-18
Ross-shire Journal Extracts
Sergeant Ivy Forbes
Private James F. Forbes
Sergeant Nellie Forbes
Gunner Roderick F. Forbes

A PATRIOTIC CROMARTY FAMILY
The family of Mr and Mrs Colin Forbes, Ivy Cottage, Cromarty, have truly a splendid record of patriotic service in the great war. Four sons are serving with the Colours, one is the wearer of the coveted honour of the Distinguished Conduct Medal, while two young daughters are carrying on in munition works, helping to "deliver the goods" so necessary to the fighters on land and sea.
Pte. James F. Forbes, the eldest son, enlisted in the 1/4th Camerons in November 1914. Trained at Bedford, he joined the B.E.F. with the first draft which left in the Spring of 1915. The story of the 1/4th Camerons was brief and bright in France, but when it suffered from reconstruction processes Pte. Forbes remained a Cameron still, and has served throughout the Western Front. Before the war he was a ploughman with Mr Thomson, Poyntzfield.
The second son, Corpl. Donald W. Forbes, R.G.A., joined up in December [obliterated] when the call fell strongly on the [obliterated] of most young fellows. He was trained at Invergordon and in England, and in 1916 was sent to France. A brave, intrepid soldider, he was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for gallantry in the field for "saving of a gun team [obliterated] in action, at great personal risk, and in the face of exceptionally heavy fire". Before the war he too was a ploughman at Poyntzfield Mains.
The third son, Bom. Alexander F. Forbes, R.G.A., joined up in the spring of 1915. Employed with a Government contractor at Invergordon, he left a "cushy" billet for the sterner task of war. Trained at Invergordon and in England, in June 1916 he went to the Western Front. He was wounded at the opening of the present offensive and is still under hospital treatment.
The fourth son, Gr. Roderick F. Forbes, R.G.A., joined up in the spring of 1915. He was then in the service of the Admiralty at Cromarty, being employed on the clerical staff, and, so to speak, well covered by the Government umbrella. Like his brother, he preferred a more active participation in the war. He too was trained at Invergordon and in England, where he remained until August 1917, when he went to France. Subsequently he proceeded to the Italian Front with his battery, and there he still remains.
Misses Nellie and Ivy F. Forbes have been on war work in a munition factory for over a year. That they are efficient workers and valued leaders is evidenced by the fact that they have both been given the rank of sergeant.
Mr and Mrs Forbes are to be congratulated on the patriotic spirit with which they have inspired their family, whose safe return from war all their friends join in wishing.
Photos of the brothers and sisters appear today.

Date of Paper-----------------------07.06.1918
Surname-----------------------------Forbes
First Name(s)-----------------------James F.
Rank---------------------------------Private
Regiment----------------------------1/4th Camerons
Home Address----------------------Ivy Cottage, Cromarty.

Date of Paper---------------------07.06.1918
Surname--------------------------Forbes
First Name(s)--------------------Nellie
Rank------------------------------Sergeant
Regiment-------------------------Munitions
Home Address-------------------Ivy Cottage, Cromarty

Date of Paper----------------------07.06.1918
Surname----------------------------Forbes
First Name(s)----------------------Roderick F.
Rank--------------------------------Gunner
Regiment---------------------------R.G.A.
Home Address--------------------Ivy Cottage, Cromarty.

Date of Paper------------------07.06.1918
Surname------------------------Forbes
First Name(s)------------------Ivy
Rank----------------------------Sergeant
Regiment-----------------------Munitions
Home Address-----------------Ivy Cottage, Cromarty.

However, this Newspaper is not perfect - there was, as far as I can see, no Donald - although that was my granddads Alexander's middle name.
Any ideas?
kind regards
Debs

.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th November 2012 at 8:22 PM

Dear Debs,
It's a question of finding evidence from primary sources. The newspaper article called one son Alexander F. Forbes although a birth record showed he was named Alexander Donald Forbes, the son of Colin and Ann born in 1893. However, there were other Forbes families in Ross and Cromarty with sons called Alex[ander] and Roderick, so it is not possible to positively identify them from their medal cards. The two medal cards with the similar numbers may well be the two brothers but there is nothing to further identify them.
The newspaper article says the son who was awarded the DCM was called Donald W. Forbes. I have not located this record.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Debs
Date: Saturday 10th November 2012 at 8:37 PM

Oh dear, it really is one step forward three back! I have all the birth, relevant marriage, and the death certificates for the family so I have done all I can do, I think. I shall search for the other family with an Alexander and a Roderick and see what I can find. I have some deleting to do!
Thank you again Alan, I really appreciate your help - we are going to a Rememberance Service tomorrow and shall put an extra donation in.
kind regards
Debs
Posted by: Lynn Bell {No contact email}
Location: Near Tadcaster
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 6:17 PM
Dear Alan

My brother and I are searching for information about our Grandfather Edward Walker who servied in WW1. He did return back to Britain.
He was born as Edward Walker in South Chelsea, London on 6.11.1891. I have a photocopy of one page from a book/magazine with the word MUFTI at the top of the page, it says: Edward Walker (1468) A Company, attached to the Lewis Gun section, died at Chelsea on September 7th aged 47 (which on death certificate is 1939). He was captured at Miraumont in February 1917 and remained a prisoner until Christmas 1918. We wondered if there was any information awailable as to where he was imprisoned, which I realise is probably very difficult or any information on his return. Any information would be gratefully received, thank you for your time.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 7:19 PM

Dear Lynn,
Records of prisoners of war are held by the archives of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva. However, they have suspended searches until the year 2014 while the records are conserved and digitized.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Lynn Bell
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 8:10 PM

Dear Alan

Thank you very much for your reply. I will look forward to going down this route in a couple of years.

Best Wishes
Lynn
Posted by: Kev {Email left}
Location: Mansfield
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 11:49 AM
Dear Alan

I wondered if you could help me again, please. I have located my great uncles service records on Ancestry but I am not sure what the abbreviations mean on the records. His name was Private William Day No 116403 joined the 4th Battalion Sherwood Foresters on 22/04/1918, he was sent to France with the 10th Battalion Sherwood Foresters and died of wounds 30/08/1918, it says he died of GSW which I think means gun shot wound, but there numerals after the GSW, I do not know what they mean, hopefully you do. There is not much on his service records because he was only in for France 17 days before he died.

Also I have discovered that I had another great uncle that served in France, his name was Private Thomas Shipman No 56261 of Blidworth Notts joined the Royal Garrison Artillery on 07/12/1914, he survived and was discharged in 1917, there is a lot more information on his but as before there are parts on the service records that I do not understand.

Your help would be greatly appreciated,

Kind Regards,

Kev.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 6:57 PM

Dear Kev,
GSW stood for gunshot wound but it was used in a broad sense by casualty clearing stations to describe any wound typical of a bullet or shrapnel pellets, even shell splinters. I do not know what the roman numerals after GSW meant. On 29 August 1918 William Day was treated at No 3 Casualty Clearing Station which was based at Gezaincourt between March and September 1918. He was buried at Bagneux British Cemetery at Gezaincourt having died of wounds on 30th August. The 10th Bn Notts and Derby (Sherwood Foresters) had been fighting in the second Battle of Bapaume 1918 at the time. William had gone to France as part of a draft of conscripted reinforcements on 14th August 1918 and was at "K" Infantry Base depot when he was posted to the 10th Battalion. He had been initially called up on 5th March 1916 but continued to work as a miner before being conscripted after a medical exam at Chesterfield on 11 April 1918. He joined the regiment at Derby on 22nd April 1918.

Thomas Shipman enlisted with the No. 26 (Heavy) Battery Royal Garrison Artillery at Fort Wallington Fareham. The Battery was numbered 131 Battery on 7 May 1915. On 6 September 1915 he was sent abroad to join the British Expeditionary Force in France and Flanders. From 31 October 1915 until 8th September 1915 he served with 112 Heavy Battery. From September 1916 he served with 111 Heavy Battery RGA which saw action at Arras and Ypres in 1917. On 7th November 1917 he was admitted to No 53 General hospital at Boulogne suffering from nephritis (kidney disease). He was sent to the Uk and admitted to the East Leeds War Hospital on 14th November 1917. He was discharged from the army on 4th July 1918. The war diary of the 111 Battery is at the National archives in catalogue reference WO 95/390. As most artillery units were employed by different commands at various stages in the war, you would need to read the war diaries of the units to establish exactly where they served.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Kev
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 5:25 PM

Dear Alan,

Thank you for that information, very informative. It's a long way to travel from Nottinghamshire to Fareham to enlist, I wonder why he chose to join the RGA, Would it have been his choice, do you think?. At least he made it back home alive.

Kind Regards,

Kev.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 19th January 2012 at 6:15 PM

Dear Kev,
Thomas would probably have signed on at his local recruiting office. They would allocate the regiment and give him a rail warrant to travel to the "depot" of the regiment who would then place him in his first company, in this case at Fareham. Many recruits travelled to the depot the morning after enlisting, with just enough time to pack a bag and say farewell.
Kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Wendy {Email left}
Location: Scotland
Date: Tuesday 17th January 2012 at 9:42 PM
My grandmothers uncle, Alexander (Sandy) Watson was a serjeant in the carabiniers. Sandy went to France in 1914 and died in February 1917 of self inflicted wounds. We have no idea if Sandy meant to kill himself or just give himself a wound, or if he died outright or of infection of the wound.
He is buried in a lone grave in Le Boisle communal cemetary, France. Would there be any paperwork anywhere if someone shot himself and why would he be buried in this cemetary? was it just closest to where he died. I would be gratefull if anyone can help.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 1:44 PM

Dear Wendy,
Sgt Alexander Watson was probably a regular soldier or a reservist as he entered France with the 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) on 16th August 1914. The 6th Dragoon Guards served in the 4th Cavalry Brigade in the Cavalry Division in the first month of the war. They then became part of 1st Cavalry Division and in October 1914 became part of 2nd Cavalry Division with which they remained, in France and Flanders, throughout the war. They saw fighting at Mons, and the Marne, in the first two battles of Ypres, and on the Somme.

A medal rolls index card for Alexander Watson showed he died of wounds (self inflicted) on 22 February 1917. He is buried in a lone grave in the village, or commune, cemetery at Le Boisle north of Abbeville. The expression "died of wounds" can mean that he died some time after being wounded, or, perhaps in this case, that he died as a result of a self inflicted wound (ie not as a result of enemy action) in which case he may have died immediately. The fact he is in a lone grave suggests that he was not treated in hospital as a hospital would have produced numerous graves in the same location. He appears, therefore, to have been buried by his friends in the local French cemetery where he was at the time.

Le Boisle was in the rear area (although within range of enemy aircraft in 1918) near Abbeville which was the location of British Headquarters from October 1914 and was an important centre of administration, hospitals and training camps. There were numerous hutted camps which housed thousands of troops in the area. The town of Hesdin, near Le Boisle, was a staff headquarters and HQ of the Royal Flying Corps. Hesdin was much liked by the British troops as it was near the coast and was set in pleasant countryside, ideal for leave. It is not clear why Sgt Watson was at Le Boisle. He may have been with his unit; although he could have been attending a training course or on leave.
There is a photo of the grave at
http://www.ww1cemeteries.com/ww1cemeteries/ww1cemeteries_ext/le_boisle_cc.htm

His unit's location would be identified from their war diary which is held at the National Archives at Kew in Catalogue reference WO 95/1137.

As he died from self-inflicted wounds there would have been aboard of inquiry. The inquiry would have been convened by his commanding officer, or the CO of the unit to which he was attached at the time, and would have consisted of three officers hearing evidence from witnesses. The outcome of the board would have been sent to the Adjutant General's office at GHQ of the 2nd Cavalry Division. Copies would then have been placed with the record office dealing with the soldier's affairs, probably at Canterbury as the 6th were based there from 1912. No individual service record appears to have survived for Alexander Watson so any surviving copy of the outcome of the board would be difficult to trace although the National Archives does hold an "index to casualty returns 1660 1938; 6 Dragoon Guards in WO 25/2422. I don't know what it contains.

His death certificate may or may not state the cause of death. Wartime certificates are often little more than name, rank and number. It is GRO War Deaths Army Other Ranks (1914 to1921) WATSON, Alexander, Dragoon Guards, Sergeant 6356; 1917; volume C.1 Page 124. Certificates can be ordered online from the General Register Office.

Men who were suspected of Self Inflicted Wounds were treated in hospital and were labelled with a green docket marked DI (Deliberate Injury?) or SIW. One hospital at Le Havre specialised in SIWs as the men who survived were then automatically court-martialled. The penalty could be the death sentence, although this was not imposed on the 3894 men convicted of SIW. A prison sentence of up to 5 years could be imposed.
We cannot prejudge, but Sgt Watson appears not to have survived the wound, so a board of inquiry is more likely than a court martial.

In 1922, the Carabiniers were merged with the 3rd Regiment of Dragoon Guards to form the 3rd/6th Dragoon Guards. Their regimental museum might be able to suggest areas for further research. See:
http://www.scotsdgmuseum.com/

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Wendy
Date: Wednesday 18th January 2012 at 9:54 PM

Dear Alan thank you very much for your help.
Posted by: Bella {No contact email}
Location: Esher
Date: Monday 16th January 2012 at 8:26 PM
Dear Alan,

Elizabeth Johnson born 2nd September 1859, Horton Kirby, Kent. Married name Moon. 1891 census shows her a widow with 2 small children (she 31). Am trying to work out how long she had been widowed as I have no christian name of her late husband and where he was born, not necessarily in Kent I assume. Trying also to find marriage certificate and banns but as yet, no luck.

Could you be of assistance? which would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards.

Bella
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 16th January 2012 at 9:24 PM

Dear Bella,
Eliazabeth was baptised at Horton Kirby on 9 October 1859, daughter of James and Jane.
Elizabeth Johnson appears to have married Samuel Alfred Moon in the last quarter of 1881 at Sevenoaks district. (GRO Marriages 1881 Sevenoaks Kent. Oct Nov Dec Vol 2a page 1023) He died in the third quarter of 1887. In 1901 Elizabeth and Edith her daughter were with her father James Johnson. There was a "Samuel Fd Moon" living at Otford in the 1881 census, born 1857. There is no birth index in that name but there is an Alfred Samuel Moon born Sevenoaks in 1856 who was indexed on one website as Albert Samuel Moon. The actual register has Alfred Samuel Moon. (GRO Births 1856 Sevenoaks Kent Jul Aug Sept vol 2a page 321).
Kind regards,

Alan
Reply from: Bella
Date: Monday 16th January 2012 at 9:57 PM

Dear Alan.

Thank you so much.

The BL will benefit from your diligence.

Kind regards

Bella
Posted by: Jo Howarth {Email left}
Location: Leeds
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 5:30 PM
Dear Alan

I have just located the service record of my great-grandfather, Frederick Baldwin. I've been looking for it for years but I was thwarted as he signed up in Lincoln and not Leeds where he lived until shortly before. From what I can gather, he was a motor driver attached to a Canadian regiment but I am really struggling to interpret the rest of the record. Frederick was born in 1885 in Leeds, Yorkshire and was the husband of Sarah Ellen (nee Brown). His number was 033649 and he was in the Army Service Corps. I would be most grateful if you could help me discover what he did in the war. His record comes up in Ancestry with the spelling Fredrick Baldwin. With many thanks, Jo
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 8:07 PM

Dear Jo,
Frederick Baldwin served with the Mechanical Transport (MT) section of the Army Service Corps as a lorry driver and fitter. He went from Bulford to France on 21st September 1916 and was a lorry driver attached to 5th Canadian Siege Battery ammunition column of the Canadian artillery probably to June 1918. He would be delivering ammunition from a railhead to an ammunition dump to the heavy guns of the siege battery. He served in many MT companies of the ASC, so it is not possible to state exactly where he was serving although he may have remained attached to the 5th Canadian Siege Battery. The reason for the complexity is that he has a standard British record of service which lists British ASC MT Companies, but there is also a handwritten list of events with 5th Canadian Siege Battery bearing their office stamp up to 1918, so I imagine whichever British MT Company he was with, it was attached to the 5th Canadian Siege Battery's ammunition supply column. Frederick served with 402 MT Company, 593 MT Company and 886 MT Company up to May 1918. He was hospitalised for "trench fever" (Pyrexia Unknown Origin PUO and pyrexia NYD not yet diagnosed, or, according to the soldiers, not yet dead). He suffered a slight shoulder bruise in an accident.
In July 1918 he was sent to a base depot (1st Base MT Depot) after leaving hospital and was posted to 5th Auxiliary Petrol Company, 5th ATMT Company and 89th Anti-aircraft artillery section in September 1918 and then "D" Anti-aircraft Battery until he left the army in 1919.
These descriptions are not always helpful as each ASC unit had a numbered title as well as a descriptive title. For example, 5th Auxiliary Petrol Company was also known as 317 MT Company ASC and the "Petrol" referred to in the title reflected the fact that the lorries were petrol-driven, and not, as you would suspect, that they delivered fuel. What is consistent is that he was a lorry driver delivering ammunition on the Lines of Communication in France and Flanders.
See:
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/317-company-army-service-corps-tea-162025310

Each company will have a war diary at the National Archives at Kew, such as WO95/ 4164 "5 Auxiliary Petrol Company (317 Company ASC) Lines of communication Date: 1915 1919".
However, the war diary of the 5th Canadian Siege Battery is available online. See:
http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/warDiaryLac/wdLacP11.asp
Scroll down to page to find 5th Canadian Siege Battery and click on the maroon dates.

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jo Howarth
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 8:26 PM

Alan,

Many, many thanks for your help. That has certainly it all to me, his sons will be delighted with the information. Just one other quick question: I noticed on one of the pages that Fred was twice disciplined for contravention of the fifth army traffic order 175. The first time his punishment was reverting back to private from lance corporal and the second time he was forfeited 14 days pay. I've tried to find out what this order was or could have been but to no avail. Do you know by any chance?

Thank you again, your help was very much appreciated and I will be making my donation to the British Legion immediately.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 8:44 PM

Dear Jo,
The 5th Army would have written a book on its traffic orders ranging from speed limits to distances between vehicles in convoys and securty of loads. I cannot say what a particular order was but like any driver, Frederick was liable to discipline if he broke the rules.
Kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Bella {No contact email}
Location: Esher
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 3:47 PM
Dear Alan,

Wonder if you can help me out here.

William Johnson, born Greatness, Kent, 1875. Parents James and Jane Johnson, residing in Otford, Kent in 1891 census which would make him 16.

Cannot find him after that. Checked WW1 records just in case, although he possibly would have been too old at that time.

Any suggestions?

Kind regards.

Bella
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 6:50 PM

Dear Bella,
William Johnson was baptised at Sevenoaks in Kent on 18th October 1874. He lived at Otford, just north of Sevenoaks. In the 1911 census he appeared as a boarder with James Brooks from Otford who was the same age. They were both described as "general labourer sewer contractor". William was still single aged 36 in 1911. He is hard to find in the 1901 census as he was probably identified as a boarder and may have been living in London. Often the birthplaces of boarders or lodgers may not have been known and there is at least one "not known" as well as a sewer contractor not born in Kent. In 1911 he was living at Goodwood Road, St Paul's Deptford, New Cross SE London.

There was one William Johnson who died in the First World War on July 1st 1917 serving with the Sherwood Foresters. He was described as born at Sevenoaks and resident at New Cross. But he is not otherwise identified, so it is not certain he is the same person.

William applied to join the army in 1893 but was turned down because of cardiac disease. His attestation paper is available on the Findmypast website (pay per view). I cannot transcribe it for you as that would be a breach of the Findmypast terms and conditions.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Bella
Date: Sunday 15th January 2012 at 7:18 PM

Dear Alan,

You've done it again!

Thank you so very much.

Bella

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