The World War Forum (Page 18)

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Posted by: Michael Hardy {No contact email}
Location: Sheffield S Yorkshire
Date: Monday 26th September 2016 at 4:11 PM
Hi Alan, I'm trying to find out any information about an Anti Aircraft Gun site in Sheffield during WW1. The site is on a banking over looking Manor Cottage Farm on Manor Lane. In the Zeppelin raid in 1916, the guns didn't open fire due to the foggy weather, but a bomb landed 50ft from one of the guns. I'm trying to find out when the site was first constructed, which regiment was there and how many men were there. I know the guns were moved to Scotland in 1917 ,and during ww2 they never reused the site, but built a new AA site across the road. The WW1 site's massive earthworks were still intact a few years ago, but now has had a large area dug out and other parts filled in, only the circular gun pit still survives.

Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 26th September 2016 at 8:52 PM

Dear Mick,
The first Home Front anti-aircraft defences were administered by the Admiralty. In December 1914, the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve raised the Sheffield Anti-Aircraft Corps who established two positions at Wincobank, on the site of an Iron Age fort on the summit of a steep hill above the River Don at Sheffield in January 1915. These were known as East position and West position and each had nine officers and 32 other ranks.
As air defence became better established its control was handed over to the War Office who administered the Army. In June 1916, responsibility was passed to the Royal Garrison Artillery who, as its name suggests, provided gun defences at coastal garrisons to deter invasion by sea. To deter invasion by air fifty-three Anti-Aircraft Companies of the RGA were authorised to be raised in June 1916.
In Sheffield the RGA apparently closed the Wincobank position and operated anti-aircraft defences at Shiregreen (which seems to be near to Wincobank), High Storrs at Ecclesall Road, Intake and Manor Lane. These were operated by 29th Anti-Aircraft Company RGA at Sheffield as part of Nottingham (Zone Z) Anti – Aircraft Defence Command.
I don’t know the strength of the companies, but Chris Baker’s website, The Long, Long Trail, states those Anti-Aircraft companies that served in France had 43 men in total with two officers each commanding one of two gun detachments of 12 men each. Duties included two telephonists, a linesman, four height-finders, four Wilson-Dalby Detector Operators, two Height and Fuze Indicator men, an Order Board Setter, a Lookout man (Air sentry), an orderly and a cook.
Sheffield local studies library has published a list of wartime photographs and cites "Fleming. Lieut. Commander Sheffield anti-aircraft corps" in the Independent War Album part 9. The Sheffield Cit Archives have a printed booklet: "Defence of the city against hostile Aircraft" (SY/295/C1/18, 1916) which contains confidential instructions from J. Hall-Dalwood, the Chief Constable of Sheffield, to members of the City Police Force and ancillary officers regarding their duties in the event of an attack from the air. It is dated 7 February 1916. A 1917 version is held at the Local Studies Library in Local Pamphlets vol. 136 no. 5 042 S.
The National Archives at Kew, Surrey, holds “Provisional War Establishment Royal Garrison Artillery: personnel required to man fixed Anti-Aircraft guns” in Catalogue reference WO33/764.
With kind regards,
Reply from: Michael Hardy
Date: Tuesday 27th September 2016 at 7:56 PM

Thank you Alan for that information, its been a big help.


Posted by: Judith Lowe {Email left}
Location: Merseyside
Date: Monday 26th September 2016 at 10:19 AM
Dear Alan
Thank You so much for the information and confirmation of the name about Private G Stockley . Sometimes the writing in the autograph book is hard to read.
Our next soldier that I cannot find out anything about is :-
Private G Brown 7699, 13 NF wounded at Loos 26th September 1915. I don't know what the 13 NF means but he wrote two lovely poems in the Autograph Book.
Judith Lowe
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 26th September 2016 at 8:43 PM

Dear Judith,
13 NF would be 13th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. The only private soldier named Brown with the regimental number 7699 in the Northumberland Fusiliers was named John Brown. There are no biographical details for him. The Army medal rolls showed he served first in the 13th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers and then the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. He survived the war.
John Brown went to France with the 13th Battalion on 9th September 1915. The Battalion had been raised at Newcastle-upon-Tyne in September 1914. They joined 21st Division and trained at Halton Park, Buckinghamshire, a tented camp set up in the grounds of Halton House which had been offered to the War Office by Alfred de Rothschild. On 14th November 1914 John Brown would have moved into winter billets in one of the towns in the Aylesbury area. He would then have returned with the 13th Battalion to Halton Park on 22nd May 1915 where, by then, huts had been constructed. Their next move was to Witley Camp on Witley Common, Surrey, in August 1915.
On the afternoon of September 9th 1915, John Brown marched out of Witley Camp to Milford railway station to join the troop train to Folkestone and then to Boulogne, arriving on the 10th September and moving into billets in Gandspette near Éperlecques. John Brown remained there for ten days undergoing field training and fitness marches. On 25th March 1915 the Battalion left Gandspette and spent five days route marching through Wittes, Ecquerdecques, and Lozingham to arrive at Noeux les Mines at 11.30 a.m. on September 25th. Before John and his colleagues could have any lunch rations brought forward they were informed they were to march via Noyelle les Vermelles to reach the Lens-Bethune Road and then march towards Lens. After dark they moved into trenches that had been captured that morning on the north side of the Lens - Bethune Road. During the night the trenches were shelled by the enemy firing high explosive and shrapnel. John Brown came under fire for the first time. He and his colleagues were then ordered out of the trenches and told to enter the village of Loos-en-Gohelle which was being continually shelled. The men were told to wait for further orders. In fact, the Battalion was to be used as support for an attack on Hill 70 if required.
At 11 p.m. John and his colleagues set off in the dark to meet up with a Scottish battalion of the 46th Infantry Brigade. “B” Company of the 13th Northumberland Fusiliers was immediately sent up to a trench on Hill 70. The remainder of the Battalion lay down in the rain and cold alongside the Loos – Hulloch road and waited for dawn, under rifle and machine-gun fire throughout the night.
The next morning, September 26th 1915, the 13th Battalion had still received no further orders. The officers knew they were to support an attack and only by seeing a copy of an order to the Highland Light Infantry stating the 13th Battalion would be in support of them did they send two more companies forward.
Later in the morning at 8.45 a.m. the saw a copy of another order to the Highland Light Infantry stating the attack would begin at 9 a.m. preceded by a British artillery bombardment lasting one hour from 8 a.m.. But it was too late. “This order was received too late and before the withdrawal could be ordered our shells were dropping amongst our own men who fell back of their own accord.” (War Diary WO95/2155/2)
From 10 a.m. on the 26th September to 2.30 p.m. the attacks swayed to and fro in Loos. Then the Battalion saw that the enemy was attacking Loos with one battalion and the left flank with two battalions. The left flank gave way and the 13th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers retired to a roadside where they mounted another attack before what was left of the fighting force retired back to the captured trenches of the previous day. They were a mixed group of men from many regiments who waited until dark in the trenches on the Lens - Bethune Road. “All that could be collected from the Battalion were withdrawn to “Quality Street” [a lane parallel to the Lens-Bethune road] and waited there until the morning of the 27th when they went to bivouac at Noyelle les Vermelles.
The 13th Battalion spent the next month re-fitting and did not return to the Front line until the end of October 1915. Their casualties on September 26th 1915 totalled 395 all ranks on their first day of battle after being rushed to the Front.
John Brown was among the wounded and he was sent home to England.
Once he had recovered, John was sent to the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. The 2nd Battalion fought at Salonika, on the Macedonian Front, with the 28th Division until June 1918 when the Battalion sailed for France. On 16th July 1918 at Martin Eglise the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers joined the 50th (Northumbrian) Division which was being re-built after heavy losses in France. John would then have seen fighting at the Battles of the Hindenburg Line and the Final Advance in Picardy. The Division was at Solre le Chateau on 11th November 1918.
John Brown returned to England and was posted to the reserve on demobilization of the 50th Division which was completed in March 1919. He qualified for the 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
With kind regards,
Reply from: Judith Lowe
Date: Monday 26th September 2016 at 8:54 PM

I have spent the afternoon working on names found in the autograph book and your so swift reply about John Brown has just arrived. I really don't know how you do it. So much information and so quickly. Thank you so much.
Posted by: Joe Winslett {Email left}
Location: East Sussex
Date: Sunday 25th September 2016 at 11:19 AM
Hi Alan
My granddad William Joseph Goodsir who died in 1977 spoke about being at the Somme with his brother called Joseph. A very popular name. I have just discovered some more information about him.His regs no was 42678. Driver. RFA. Unit B 95th Bridade.He served from 1914 to 1919. Are you able to provide me with any addition information about him.
Thank you.
Joe Winslett.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 25th September 2016 at 8:25 PM

Dear Joe,
No individual service record has survived for William Joseph Goodsir, so it is not possible to state his service in detail. The Army medal rolls showed he first went to France on 10th September 1915.
The 95th Brigade Royal Field Artillery (XCV Brigade RFA in Roman numerals) served with 21 Division throughout the war. The Division’s engagements can be seen on Chris Baker’s website, The Long, Long Trail at:
“B” Battery remained consistent throughout the war. See:
William Joseph Goodsir qualified for the 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
With kind regards,
Reply from: Joe Winslett
Date: Sunday 25th September 2016 at 8:49 PM

Hi Alan.
Thank you so much for your very quick response. I will certainly look at the Webb sites you have recommended.
Kind regards
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 25th September 2016 at 9:45 PM

Dear Joe,
I forgot to say that the war diaries of 95 Brigade RFA are available to download from the National Archives for £3.45 each of 4 sections. see:
With kind regrads,
Reply from: Joe Winslett
Date: Monday 26th September 2016 at 10:02 AM

Thank you Alan for that additional information.
Kind regards

Posted by: Judith Lowe {Email left}
Location: Merseyside
Date: Saturday 24th September 2016 at 10:19 AM
Dear Alan
Thank you very much for the latest information sent to me about Corporal Batchelor. It made fascinating reading.
The next soldier that I am interested in finding out further information about is;-
Private G Hockley ( or it could be Frockley) 12052 1st Worcestershire Regiment. He gave no further information in the book.
Best wishes
Judith Lowe
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 24th September 2016 at 9:58 PM

Dear Judith,
This was George Thomas Stockley who was a Regular Army soldier who would have enlisted in the 1st Battalion The Worcestershire Regiment when he was aged about 18, in 1910. The Battalion was stationed at Albany Barracks, Parkhurst on the Isle of Wight in 1911. The birth of George Thomas Stockley was registered in Birmingham in January 1892 . He might have been born late in 1891. From the censuses, George appears to have been the son of John and Jane Stockley of Buckingham Place, Tudor Street, St Cuthbert’s, Birmingham. He initially worked as a tube-drawer in a Birmingham foundry.
The 1st Battalion Worcestershire Regiment went to Egypt between 1911 and 1914 where it was stationed at Alexandria and Cairo. After the outbreak of war, the Battalion embarked on Hired Military Transport “Deseado” (Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, 1911) at Alexandria and sailed for Liverpool. Someone in the Battalion probably recalled the ship’s name because she had been in the headlines earlier in 1914 when on a voyage from Liverpool to Rio one of the ship’s Portuguese passengers, Alberto Olivierio Coelho, 32, walked into the lounge with a loaded revolver and shot dead his wife. He was arrested and at Liverpool Assizes on 24th April 1914 he was sentenced to death.
The 1st Battalion Worcesters docked at Liverpool at 9.15 p.m. on October 14th 1914. Families, who had sailed on a separate ship, were sent home while the men prepared to entrain for Winchester at 4.30 a.m. on the 17th. The train stopped for 30 minutes at Birmingham where the men had hot coffee and sandwiches. How George might have wished he could call in at home. The period October 17th to 4th November was spent at Hursley Park Camp which was established in the deer park of Hursley House near Winchester. There the Battalion joined the 24th Infantry Brigade in the 8th Division. Each man had two days’ leave before departing for France. On November 5th 1914, the Battalion marched to Southampton to embark on H.M. Transport “Maidan” for Le Havre. “Maidan” was an adapted a cargo vessel with converted holds. Water was boiled by the (black) ship’s cooks by injecting steam into vessels of cold water so the tea tasted only of oil from the boilers. They sailed at night but had to spend two days in the outer harbour at Havre waiting for a berth. They disembarked on November 8th and then started marching to the Front over the coming days. On November 14th at 6.30 p.m. they went into the trenches alongside the Estaires to La Bassee road at the hamlet of St. Vaast west of Neuve Chapelle. Neuve Chapelle was held by the Germans and had been fortified. The Worcesters’ trenches were rudimentary defences which were heavily fired on by rifle-fire from both the German front and the flanks. In the first five days in the trenches the 1st Battalion lost 20 men killed and 51 wounded. The trenches were so narrow the stretcher-bearers could not move down them with a stretcher and the wounded had to be carried or supported. The dead were buried by their colleagues at the rear of the trench.
The Battalion remained in these trench lines until March 1915, suffering in the freezing cold and wet of the winter of 1914/1915. They were billeted at La Gorgue some six miles to their rear when not in the trenches which were known as “A” Lines that were along the Rue du Bois to the west of Neuve Chapelle and “B” lines along the Rue de Tilleloy in the north of the village of Neuve Chapelle. The trench lines formed a dog-leg along what is now the D171 (Rue du Bois) crossing the D947 and then onto the D170 (now Rue de Carnin). The co-ordinates ‘50°35'04.8"N 2°46'05.5"E’ identify the centre of their position, which can be pasted into Google maps. There is a later 1915 map that shows the Worcestershire’s trenches of 1914 in the larger of the two lines of red rectangles at:
At 5 p.m. on Christmas Day 1914, the 1st Battalion Worcesters relieved the 2nd Northamptonshire Regiment in “B” Lines on the Rue de Tilleloy. The Northamptonshire Regiment had arranged a truce with the Germans which the Worcesters kept. Their war diary for December 25th 1914 recorded: “There was a certain amount of shouting and remarks between the Germans and ourselves, and the Germans sang English and German songs most of the night which were applauded by our men. In spite of the armistice our sentries were kept as much on the alert as usual” (WO95/723/1). Boxing Day was quiet apart from some occasional British shells being fire and the truce ended on the 27th December 1914 when firing resumed between the Worcesters and the Germans.
As a reminder that these were early days of the war for George and the Worcesters, the Battalion came up with “Archibald” which was an improvised mortar tube that fired two-pound tins of explosive. The tins previously had held plum jam. These tins were of Tickler’s plum and apple jam from Grimsby, which became famous, or notorious, during the war. (Tickler had a huge contract with the War office and the men joked the officers got strawberry jam, while the men got the down-market, surplus, plum and apple which could be made from excess crops.) See the Bruce Bairnsfather cartoon:
Early in the New Year of 1915 the Battalion had to endure gales, snow storms, and rain. The trenches were flooded and had to be pumped free of water. At one point the Battalion considered filling-in the flooded trenches so they could not be occupied by any advancing enemy. During this period of wet and cold trench routine, between 19th December 1914 and 4th March 1915 the Battalion lost 45 men killed and 111 wounded.
Casualties averaged one a day caused by rifle and shell fire. Among those casualties on 8th or 11th February 1915 was George Stockley who would have been wounded in “B” Lines, Rue de Tilleloy, Neuve Chapelle. The official casualty list dated 4th March 1915 recorded under Wounded: - “Stockley, 12025, G. Worces.” (“Scotsman” 4th March 1915 © Johnston Press).
George was returned to England with a “Blighty” wound. The 1st Battalion actually went into battle for the first time a few days later when they attacked from the sunken lane at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle (10th – 13th March 1915). But by then George was in hospital.
No individual service record has survived for George Stockley. However, the medal rolls recorded he next served with the 10th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment and the casualty lists again included his name on 4th September 1916. He would have been wounded in August 1916 whilst with the 10th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment. “Last Night’s Casualty Lists: Worcesters: Stockley 12052 L-Cpl G.T. (Birmingham)” (Birmingham Daily Gazette, 5th September 1916 © Trinity Mirror).
The 10th Battalion was in the Ypres sector at Dranoutre (now Dranouter) Flanders, Belgium. In July 1916 they had suffered 347 casualties at La Boiselle then in August 1916 they spent some weeks in Brigade Reserve at Daylight Corner (Wulverghem), Flanders, and Airfield Farm. While in trenches at Dranoutre, six men were wounded and two killed between 10th and 14th August 1916, then on 29th August 1916 at 11 a.m. three men were wounded when “The Bullring” was shelled. The “Bullring” was a trench named by the Lincolnshire Regiment after a district of Grimsby where many of the men came from. It was in the area of Kemmel and Dranoutre. Once again, George had been wounded in the daily exchanges of trench warfare and he returned to England for treatment.
His next posting was shown as 3rd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment which would have been the depot unit that administered him while he was in hospital in 1916.
George Stockley was in Birmingham in October 1917. He married May Lowe, the daughter of Reuben Lowe, fruiterer, of 24 High Street, Deritend, at St John the Baptist Church, Deritend, on 27th October 1917. George was described as a 25-year-old bachelor, soldier, son of John Stockley, iron dresser, deceased.
Deritend was a crossing point of the River Rea before Birmingham became significant. It has the only surviving medieval building in Birmingham city centre. An iron dresser was a foundry worker employed in trimming metal castings after they had been removed from their sand moulds.
George Stockley ended the war as an acting Sergeant with the 4th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment. He probably served with them in France in 1918 when they were with 88th Brigade in the 29th Division fighting in the advances in Flanders. The 29th Division occupied the Rhineland and crossed the Belgian - German frontier at Malmedy on 4th December 1918. They settled in Cologne five days later. Demobilization of the 29th Division began in March 1919, although as a regular soldier, George might have continued to serve in the Army.
George Stockley qualified for the 1914 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
As a footnote to the start of George’s war, the history of the 1st Battalion Worcestershire Regiment recorded: “The first days of 1915 were notable, so far as Regimental officers and men were concerned, for the opening of short leave to England. Not since the Peninsular days [1807–1814] had it been customary for leave home to be given to troops on active service, and the idea was so novel, to officers and men alike, as to be received with strangely mingled feelings. To many brought up in the old school of duty to their Regiment it seemed little better than absolute desertion to proceed on leave when their Battalion—their Company or Platoon—was going into the trenches, into danger. In January that feeling was general, and the first batches to proceed on leave were almost shamefaced as they left their billets. Later the feeling wore off, and leave home was accepted as part of the nature of that strange new warfare” (
With kind regards,
Posted by: Mark Parlour {Email left}
Location: Ayr
Date: Friday 23rd September 2016 at 9:21 AM
Hi Alan
I was researching my grandfather, George Percy Wilson Howard (allegedly born 30 Oct 1882 in Manchester) on the web and found your correspondence of Saturday 2nd January 2016 at 8:29 PM with Lesley regarding Thomas Howard born 28 Sept 1882 in Buckingham who had gone AWOL and reenlisted.

There is some talk that my grandfather had done undercover work in France during the war and been accused of going AWOL but exonerated when his role was recognised - but this may be just another colourful story; he had many. It does seem to be similar in some ways to the Thomas Howard story. He died in 1975 so it'll be difficult to find out the truth.

I was certainly impressed by the level of detail in your response to Lesley and I wonder if you might be able to help me.

The documentation that I do have says George Percy Wilson Howard was born 30 Oct 1882 in Manchester (from Passport, medical and death certificates).

His driving license gives his address (on 21 July 1915) as 46 Hampstead Road Dorking. He was not the owner of the house - this was George Upfold (bricklayer) and his wife Alice Sarah Upfold who lived there many years before and afterwards (according to the electoral polls and census data etc.). I have built their entire family tree, too, in case there were any links - but none is obvious; sadly. These were large houses (next door had 4 young nurses lodging) and so could easily been used for troops in 1915.

Interestingly enough, his driving license also recorded a previous conviction - “fined 50/- and 14/6 costs at Stony Stratford PC on 22 May 1914 for driving a motorcycle at a speed dangerous to the public”. Incidentally, Stony Stratford is in Buckingham where Vincent Howard (surgeon) and family lived (Vincent was a member of Stony Stratford masons) and this may be a link to the original Thomas Howard of your earlier correspondence. Of course Stony Stratford, is probably on the main road from London to Manchester, too.

On 21 July 1918, George Percy Wilson Howard married Vera Florence West (1896-1939) daughter of John Andrew West (1867-1934) and Florence Challacombe (1870-1955). There he states that his age is 35; his own occupation is an accountant, and that his father was Thomas Alexander Howard, occupation Director (retired); deceased. Searches for a suitable Thomas Alexander Howard bring up very few possible matches. There’s a shipwright in Liverpool and a Cattle breeder from up north. You would think with names as precise as these they’d be easy to find!

George was a fluent French speaker and may have worked with Michelin in France before the war then in Paris after WWI as an accountant for Pricewaterhouse from around 1920-1925. I have many photos of him in around 1920 walking round the ruined towns of northern France, or on the beach. In 1927 George lives at Ranmore Lodge, Effingham, Dorking (from the electoral register) for a couple of years so there is a strong connection to the area. Of course, Ranmore Common, Dorking is famously where the troops did exercises in 1915. Equally, there is also a very significant historical Howard connection with Effingham. He then lives in Broomfield, Hollingbourne Kent in 1930, Cambridge in 1936, The Priory Mildenhall Suffolk in 1938, and on 29 Sept 1939 at Swaffham, Norfolk.

Anecdotally, it has been suggested that GPW Howard was in the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) who were typically based in Hamilton, Lanark (near to where I am at the moment). This doesn't really make sense if he was born in Manchester and lived the rest of his life near Dorking then Norfolk; but anything is possible.

I have various photos of him wearing the Silver War Badge in civvies (naturally) in 1919 and this was only awarded (amongst the Howards of the Cameronians) to a George H? Howard a CSM of the Cameronians. However, there were other SWB recipients called George Howard, belonging to the RAMC and the Artillery etc - who, of course, were definitely in Dorking around 1915. Service and pension records are not helpful: there are only two George Howards: one died; the other from Southampton had all the wrong criteria (I understand that many service records were destroyed by fire) so I’ve looked at the SWB records which I believe are intact.

These are all likely George Howards who were SWB recipients (no George Percy/Wilson Howard!):
Badge Regiment Reg.No Rank Enlisted Disch S/W Os Location
491870 Royal Artillery (RFA) 710984 Sgl/L/Br 10/5/15 8/4/19 S Y Charlton
78773 East Surrey 8896 Pte 13/3/15 1/12/15 S Y Hounslow
447028 Manchester 375482 Pte 3/9/14 2/9/18 S Y (35) Preston
35260 London (4th) 6918 Pte 2/11/16 2/3/17 S N London
161178 London (9th) RAMC 3780 LCpl 21/11/14 14/10/16 S Y London
B284738 Royal Army Med. Corps 779 Pte 1/10/06 23/3/19 S Y Woking
B349808 Cameronian (1st Sc. Rifles) 39538 CSM 5/8/05 19/11/19 S (32) Hamilton

I'm assuming that he was in Dorking as a temporary lodger and was there because of billeting in the town.

The Dorking Museum site suggests that the only regiments in town at the time of (after the Surrey Yeomanry in late 1914) January 1915 were the 179th Brigade of the 60th (2/2nd London) Division of territorials which included units of the London Scottish, the Civil Service Rifles and the Queen’s Westminster Rifles; and the Royal Army Medical Corps and the Royal Field Artillery.

Other web research suggests that the following regiments were in Dorking at that time:
Surrey Yeomanry Nov 1914
60th (2/2nd London) Division of territorials. January – Feb 1915
2/14th (County of London) Bat (Ldn Scottish) & 179th Br/ 60th Div Jan -Feb 1915
2/15th (County of London) Battalion (Prince of Wales's Own Civil Service Rifles)

And those billeted in Dorking:
2nd Battalion London Scottish January – 28 February 1915
13th (Reserve) Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders April – June 1915
Royal Field Artillery October 1915 – January 1916
Royal Army Medical Corps 1915 billeted in the Dorking for several months of training

Incidentally, I did find on the web an old photo of 4 army motorcyclists from the Argyles going down a street in Dorking at about the right time…
I have a lot of information about his later life and lots of information about George Howards in the Manchester (Lancashire/Yorkshire/Cheshire intersection sadly!) in earlier life. The correct war story will hopefully link them up!
If you could shed any light on this I’d be most grateful.
Kind regards
Mark Parlour
Reply from: Mark Parlour
Date: Thursday 13th October 2016 at 9:06 AM

Hi Alan
further to my last message, I've managed to get hold of George Percy Wilson Howard's Old Contemptibles Association certificate (as G Wilson Howard) which puts his regiment as 1st Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). However I can't seem to find any matching wartime records on Ancestry.
I do know that he was a recipient of the SWB as I have many photos where he is wearing it.

The ONLY Howard SWB record on ancestry that is remotely similar is for a GH? Howard who was a CSM in the 1st Cameronians. I also have a continuing education certificate from Hamilton School Board 1911 (aged 28) - but it doesn't state it is Hamilton Lanarkshire home of the Cameronians.

Any help you can give me would be much appreciated.
kind regards
Mark Parlour
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 13th October 2016 at 5:29 PM

Dear Mark,
The actual War Badge roll entry for “G. H. Howard” shows he was, in fact, J. H. Howard, M.M., 39538, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). He enlisted in the Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment) in 1905 and served until 1919. He had transferred to the Cameronians in 1917. His service record showed he served as John Henry Howard which was an alias for his real name which was John Schiffman. The 1891 Scotland census shows he was probably the son of John Schiffman who was born in Stralsund, Germany.
If George W. Howard was a member of the Old Contemptibles he must have served in France and Flanders between August and November 1914 and qualified for the 1914 Star with “Mons” clasp which showed the dates: 5th Aug – 22nd Nov 1914. The 1914 Star medal rolls show a G. Howard, 9189, Lance-sergeant, of the 1st Cameronian (Scottish Rifles) who qualified for the 1914 Star and “Mons” clasp. The correct regimental number appears to have been 8198 shown on his War Badge and other medal rolls entry. His medal index card showed him as George W. Howard 9189 and 8189 and recorded his name was included in the War Badge rolls. The War Badge rolls on the Ancestry website indexed him as George W. Howard, South Wales Borderers (sic) 8198, but the entry itself shows him as George W. Howard, Depot Scottish Rifles. He enlisted on 3rd October 1903 and was discharged because of sickness on 8th October 1915. There does not appear to be any further surviving record for him and it has not been possible to identify him with any biographical details or to establish what the initial W. stood for.
The “Buckingham Advertiser and Free Press” of 30th May 1914 reported the cases at Stony Stratford Petty Sessions of May 22nd 1914. They included a George Howard of Dorking, a commercial traveller, who was convicted of riding a motorcycle and sidecar dangerously. It was stated George Howard travelled 25,000 miles a year by motor. (© Johnston Press via British Newspaper Archive). The 1st Cameronians were stationed at Glasgow Garrison at the time. The Battalion went to France on 15th August 1914. The medal card for George W. Howard showed he entered France on 15th August 1914, so he would most probably have been a serving Regular Army soldier or reservist in August 1914.
Unless you have his regimental number from family sources it will not be possible to make a positive identification of his wartime records.
With kind regards,
Reply from: Mark Parlour
Date: Friday 14th October 2016 at 9:05 AM

Hi Alan
Thanks very much indeed for your excellent research - it does all seem to tie up with what I have and I've since managed to download three original documents relating to his awards (Victory Medal and British War Medal) etc. based on a regimental number of 8198.
There's an entry at the right of the medal table that says IVRI 1955 [presumably this can't imply died in 1955??] df 26.2.24 AS d/110.
The individual campaign record for 1914 shows the VM and BM with clasp and roses 3.8.11 df 3.5.28 and the SWB list D/24S72. qualifying date 15 8 14 once again marked AS/D/110. it reaffirms 8198 corporal but also states 9198 above it with L/Sgt 1 Sco Rifles.
The SWB record table confirms the enlistment and discharge dates and his reg no as 8198.
At the moment, as you say, I can't find any service record or pension record as I have for other family members (as these give lots of family and education details) - I wonder if these were lost of have simply not been transcribed yet - a couple of the sites talk about adding new records each day.
My uncle, George's son, did go to Kew many years ago and found a record which also tied up with the enlistment and discharge dates, and rank and regiment, as you suggest.
I'm still not sure why he was at 46 Hampstead Road Dorking as of 21 Jul 1915 - he would have to be lodging with the Upfold family but I can't see any obvious link.
I'll now try and find some records for his time at Hamilton Barracks, Lanarkshire from 1903 to 1914.
Your help has been invaluable. Many thanks!
Kind regards
Mark Parlour
Posted by: Howard Barkell {Email left}
Location: Lydford Devon
Date: Thursday 22nd September 2016 at 7:55 AM
Dear Alan,

I shall be pleased to receive any information you can give me about 96425 Private Aubrey Down, 4 Bn Tank Corps who died on 22 April 1918. Thank you in advance!

Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 22nd September 2016 at 5:48 PM

Dear Howard,
The birth of Aubrey Down was registered in the last quarter of 1898. He was the second of four sons of George and Ellen Down of East Halse Farm, Bow, near Crediton in Devon. He would have enlisted voluntarily under-age as he first went to France on 9th July 1915 when he would have been 16 years-old. He first served with 78th Supply Company Army Service Corps, as a private numbered S/4/039759. According to the medal rolls, 78th Company was with 15th Division. The 15th Division did go to France in July 1915 but it has proved very difficult to find any information about the 78th Company A.S.C..
Significantly, the drivers of the tanks were all A.S.C. mechanical transport volunteers, so it would appear that Aubrey volunteered to joined the Tank Corps, although the Corps itself did not come into existence until July 1917 being known before then as the Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps. D Company HBMGC became 4th Battalion Tank Corps by March 1918. Their tanks all had Chinese eyes painted on them. For an explanation, and their history, see:
No individual service record has survived for Aubrey Down, so it is not possible to state when he transferred to the Tank Corps. He did not have an M.G.C. regimental number, so it appears his Tank Corps number, 96425, was allotted after the Corps was formed in July 1917.
Aubrey was killed in action, aged 19, on 24th April 1918 near Hazebrouck. The date is better known for the first ever tank-against-tank battle at Cachy during the Battle of Villers-Bretonneux. Aubrey is buried at Morbecque Cemetery near Hazebrouck which was used by the 5th and 29th Divisions. The cemetery was started in April 1918 when the Lys Offensive saw the second German advance between 9th and 29th April 1918.
Aubrey qualified for the 1914-15 Star, The British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
His brother, Percy Down, served with the Royal Field Artillery and was awarded the Military Medal for “gallantry in saving some big guns during the retreat of March 1918”.
The Western Times of Friday 31st May 1918 published photographs of the two boys (British Newspaper Archive).
With kind regards,
Reply from: Howard Barkell
Date: Friday 23rd September 2016 at 8:08 PM

Dear Alan

Thank you once again for a prompt, informative, interesting reply. It is surprising how just a little amount of information can conjure up such vivid images. I guess it must have been pretty awful working and fighting in such a primitive machine, but perhaps the volunteers didn't see it that way.

With many thanks

Posted by: Chris Savory {Email left}
Location: France
Date: Wednesday 21st September 2016 at 5:42 PM
Hi Alan

My grandfather, Private Ernest Savory(625087),1/19th London Regiment, attested for service on 10 December 1915 in Poplar London.He began his active service on 4 January 1918, do his attestation records survive and what would he have been doing during this period between attesting and landing in France?

Also, he was discharged from the army on 1 November 1918,as a result of contracting T.B. probably as a German POW,are there any TNA records that provide any information on his hospitalisation , discharge or pension?


Chris Savory
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 21st September 2016 at 8:12 PM

Dear Chris,
No individual service record has survived for Ernest Savory so it is not possible to state his service in detail. There is no information about medical details or discharge. Those would have been with his individual file. In general, hospital medical records have not survived. However, one Red Cross document recorded his admission to hospital when he was re-patriated (see below).
The date he attested was significant as it was towards the end of the three month “Derby Scheme” of deferred enlistment. This enabled a man to volunteer before December 15th 1915 and to be called-up for service at some later date. The scheme was in anticipation of compulsory conscription being introduced in March 1916. In theory, as a married man, Ernest would have been called up after single men, but that did not always work out. He went abroad to France on 4th January 1918. Given perhaps six months’ basic training, the latest he would have been called-up would be about June 1917. However, he could have been called- up before then and remained in the U.K. in one of the reserve battalions that provided reinforcements.
It is possible he served in the 3rd/19th Battalion London Regiment which was a reserve battalion that trained at Winchester, Chisledon, and Blackdown, Sussex. However, he might have been posted to the 1st/19th Battalion London Regiment once he had arrived at a base camp in France, as the Battalion had been in France since 1915. The Battalion war diary for January 1918 stated that on 19th January at Bertincourt, a draft of two officers and 109 other ranks joined the battalion in the afternoon.
The date Ernest was taken prisoner, 24th March 1918, is relevant as it was during the German advance of Spring 1918 (Operation Michael) when many British prisoners were taken. The 1st/19th Battalion London Regiment was with 47th Division and was caught in the Battle of Bapaume March 21st – 23rd 1918. By 24th March 1918, the 1st/19th Battalion had retired from the front line to the third line of defence (which didn’t really exist other than on paper and was known as the Green Line). At midnight on 23rd/24th March 1918 the Battalion moved into an old trench system in the village of Rocquigny, Somme, seven miles from Bapaume, with the 18th London Regiment to their left. But their patrols that went out all night could find no-one on the right flank. At 8 a.m. on 24th March they identified there was a gap of some 800 yards to their right before they could find other British soldiers of the Notts and Derby Regiment. German patrols had also identified the gap. In the morning of March 24th they attacked the 1st/19th London Regiment through the gap. The fighting to defend the trenches was severe but by 1 p.m. the Germans had broken through and occupied the south-west corner of Rocquigny. The Battalion withdrew into the village where they fought for 30 minutes before they withdrew further to High Wood and waited for stragglers. For the next three days they withdrew to Contalmaison Ridge, Vauchelles, Toutencourt and eventually Senlis where they got a night’s rest on March 28th 1918. The Battalion’s losses between March 21st and March 26th 1918 were 17 killed; 82 wounded and 310 missing.
Ernest Savory was among the missing. He was captured during the fight at Rocquigny “nicht verwundet” (not wounded). He was taken eventually to Kriegsgefangenenlager Munster II, Westphalia (P.o.W. Camp Munster 2). He appeared on their register dated 2nd May 1918. On 12 June 1918 he was transferred to Kriegsgefangenenlager Minden, Westphalia. He was repatriated “sick – severe”.
He did give a statement on his return which was not published. Approximately 750 pages of interviews and reports on First World War Prisoners of War are known not to have survived. See:
The German prison camp admission registers are held at the Archives of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva. They can be searched and viewed online, free. Enter the surname and “validate” it as British on the next page. The records were indexed phonetically, not alphabetically, so the start-page in the central results window will show “Savage”. Scroll right down the page using the light tan coloured button on the extreme right of the page to find Savory towards the end of the long list of cards. Hover over the index card and click on the red box that appears. Of the five references, only PA 25725; PA 22840 and R 51509 have survived. There is a good deal of scrolling down required to find the PA page numbers in the results windows. The R 51509 entry is a list of repatriated prisoners of war who were admitted to King George Hospital, Stamford Street, Waterloo, London on 18th August 1918. Search the records at:
The King George was a Red Cross hospital in a requisitioned warehouse. See:
Private Ernest Savory qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. He was granted a War Badge for being discharged through sickness.
For more on the Derby Scheme see:
For an article on the lack of medical records see:
With kind regards,
Reply from: Chris Savory
Date: Wednesday 21st September 2016 at 8:26 PM


Thank you so much for your painstaking and informative prompt reply.

Regards and very best wishes.

Chris Savory
Posted by: Becca {Email left}
Location: E Yorks
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 10:58 AM
Hello again Alan, I wonder if you could do some detective work for me please?
Thomas Loyd Randelhoff Smith born 16 Jun 1909 in India. He married our Rosina Derrick in Leeds in 1930 and died there in 1951.
He was baptised on 4 Jul 1909 in Muree, Bengal. His mother was Ada
This is all that I know about him, and wondered if you could supply me with his father's details - thinking that he must have been in the Army, and any other information you may find about the family.

Kind regards and thank you once again.

Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 12:15 PM

Dear Becca,
The English BMD indexes and census returns show the family of Thomas Loyd Randelhoff Smith born in 1853 in Lancashire; his marriage in Leeds in 1875; the birth of a son Thomas Loyd R. at Leeds in 1875; the son’s marriage in 1904 at Hampstead; and then your Thomas L.R. Smith born India 1909.
Service records for Thomas Smith born Leeds 1875 are available on the website. Findmypast do not permit transcription of their records on an internet forum such as this.
Birth certificates from the armed forces in India are available from the England and Wales GRO as an “overseas event”. They are indexed on the Findmypast website.
With kind regards,
Posted by: Judith Lowe {Email left}
Location: Merseyside
Date: Monday 19th September 2016 at 2:24 PM
Thank you so much for the information regarding William Storey and for your kind offer of help to us. The British Legion is a charity close to my heart. My Father who fought in WWII was the Rainhill Poppy Appeal Organiser for many years and of course, I was draughted in to help each year. Therefore it will be a pleasure to send a donation to them in due course.
The next soldier that I have been looking for information about is Cpl W Batchelor No 2303 from 9th Battalion East Surry Regiment. his address was 184 Portnall Road, Paddington, London. He was wounded at Loos on 26th September 1915.
Judith Lowe
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 3:12 PM

Dear Judy,
There is little surviving evidence for Corporal Batchelor.
He was William Henry Batchelor who served with the 9th Battalion East Surrey Regiment which had been formed at Kingston-upon-Thames in September 1914. The Battalion moved to Shoreham in the 24th Division and then went into billets at Worthing for the winter. In April 1915 it returned to Shoreham and then moved to Blackdown, Sussex, in June 1915. William went to France with the Battalion on 1st September 1915. The Battalion went into training at Humbert, Pas de Calais, until September 24th 1915 when they moved to Bethune. The next day, Saturday 25th September 1915, they marched to Vermelles but because of a lack of orders they couldn’t proceed from there. At 4 a.m. on Sunday 26th September 1915, the 9th Battalion East Surrey Regiment was ordered to take cover in some enemy trenches that had been captured the day before. The Battalion tried to get some rations forward for the men but did not succeed. At 10.20 a.m. they were ordered to attack the enemy at 11 a.m.. This was their first day in battle and they were given 40 minutes’ notice to attack. The enemy’s line was from Hullock to Cité St Auguste. When the attack went in, they discovered the wire had not been cut and they were pinned down by machine gun fire which caused heavy casualties at Hill 70. The Battalion took a quarry from the enemy but were unable to hold it. They were ordered to retire to their start line in the former enemy trenches. By 5 p.m. they were back in their start line but had been heavily shelled all day. Those who were not casualties or were slightly wounded were either wounded again or killed by the shelling. The Battalion was relieved at 1 a.m. on Monday September 27th having suffered 444 casualties – almost half their strength. The Battalion had to be re-built (War Diary WO95 2215/1).
The local Surrey newspaper, the Dorking and Leatherhead Advertiser, published the casualty lists on Saturday 30th October 1915, including 9th Battalion: Cpl. W. Batchelor.
The London Gazette of 23rd August 1916 recorded the Military Medal had been awarded to “2303; Cpl. W. Batchelor, E. Surr. R.”. The award of the Military Medal was published without citation.
The 9th Battalion had been in the Ploegsteert Wood area in Belgium, North of Armentieres, France, in the Spring of 1916 and moved to the Somme late in July 1916, arriving at Morlancourt on 1st August 1916 after having to wait for 12 hours for an overdue train at Mericourt station. In June 1916 the 9th Battalion spent ten days in trench routine in the Front line at Red Lodge, Ploegsteert; and Stinking Farm, Messines (Mesen) Flanders; followed by a few days’ in rest billets at Meteren. The enemy shelled their trenches on numerous occasions and the occasional patrol went out to harass enemy working parties. The Battalion war diary recorded “the following awards were made in June”. There followed: one Military Cross; one Distinguished Conduct Medal and five Military Medals, including 2503 (sic) Corporal W.H. Batchelor.
No other information was recorded in the diary, but the citation in The London Gazette for Sgt W. Summers’ D.C.M. stated “For conspicuous gallantry on several occasions, notably when after the bombing officer had been killed, he took charge, visiting all the squads under very heavy fire and supervised a fresh bomb supply. On another occasion, when on patrol, he entered the enemy trench, shot one man, and brought back valuable information” (London Gazette 27th July 1916).
[2nd Lt L.G. Haddenham was wounded on 17th June 1916 at Messines and died the next day]
The citation for the Military Cross for 2nd/Lt Frank Ridley Ingrams, 9th Battalion East Surrey Regiment, stated: “For conspicuous gallantry. When in charge of front line trenches, which were destroyed by heavy enemy shells, he re-organised the defences under shell fire, rescued the buried and arranged for fresh supplies of ammunition and bombs” (London Gazette 27th July 1916).
Corporal Batchelor would have been involved in one of these events while in the trenches at Ploegsteert or Messines. This entry in the war diary reveals he had returned to the 9th Battalion in Flanders by June 1916.
His name appeared in a second casualty list dated 11th July 1916, which would have detailed casualties in June 1916, suggesting he was wounded on the occasion he was awarded the Military Medal - most probably for gallantry at Ploegsteert or Messines.
William Batchelor was re-numbered at some stage in the war after 1916, when he was allotted the wartime general-service style five-digit number, 39202 in the East Surrey Regiment. This suggests he might not have served with the 9th Battalion at the end of the war as the East Surrey numbers beginning 392xx appear to have been allotted by the 3rd (Depot) Battalion East Surrey Regiment late in the war, many to men who had served in various other regiments previously. Many of them were posted to the 8th Battalion in 1918. William was demobilized on 28th March 1919 and was transferred to the ‘Z’ Reserve which was for men who would be re-called if the Armistice with Germany did not hold. This indicated he was still in service at the end of the war.
Corporal William Henry Batchelor M.M. qualified for the 1914-15 Star, The British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
The address 184 Portnall Road, Paddington, London, was shown in the 1901 census as a house in multiple occupation as flats or rooms.
With kind regards,
Posted by: Alan Jermyn {Email left}
Location: Falmouth
Date: Sunday 18th September 2016 at 8:39 PM
I am trying to find out about my Nans brothers both died in th First World War , Joseph Jordan was in the Royal horse artillery 256 Brigade and died in October 1918, his elder brother Alexander was killed in Iraq ( Messopotania) serving with the Kings own Lancaster regiment 6th battalion , I would love to know where they are buried and some idea of where they fought .

Kind regards
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 19th September 2016 at 4:18 PM

Dear Alan,
Joseph Jordan served with the Royal Field Artillery (R.F.A.). He served with 256 Brigade for less than a month and spent much of his war with another brigade.
Joseph enlisted at Wigan on 6th August 1914, the second day of the war. He was an iron dresser, aged 22; 5ft 6 ins tall. He was first posted to 212 Battery R.F.A. on 9th September 1914 and then to 278 Battery on 14th October 1914 for basic training. On 23rd January 1915, Joseph was posted to ‘A’ Battery 89th Brigade R.F.A.. On 22nd May 1915, this battery was moved and became ‘D’ (Howitzer) Battery 86 Brigade R.F.A. (LXXXVI Brigade R.F.A. in Roman numerals) in the 19th (Western) Division.
On 18th July 1915, Joseph went to France with 86 Brigade R.F.A. and the 19th (Western) Division and served with them until October 1917. The engagements of the Division can be seen on Chris Baker’s website, The Long, Long Trail. See:
On 6th August 1917, Joseph was promoted to Bombardier.
In October 1917, Joseph was thrown by his horse and fractured his skull. He was returned to the U.K. and moved to Scotland where he was treated at 1st Scottish General Hospital, Aberdeen, from October 14th 1917 to 28th December 1917. He was treated for concussion and was later prescribed spectacles. He was allowed home leave for a week on 28th December 1917 and was then posted to the Royal Artillery convalescent depot at Catterick, Yorkshire, where he was exercised back to fitness. On 2nd March 1918 he was posted to No. 4 Reserve Depot at High Wycombe.
On May 21st 1918 Joseph returned to France and passed through a base depot. On 31st May 1918 he was posted via the Divisional Ammunition Column of the 5th Division to 27 Brigade R.F.A. in the 5th Division. For 5th Division’s engagements between June and September, see:
Joseph left 27 Brigade on 6th September 1918 when he was posted to an unspecified base depot.
From there he would have joined 256 Brigade R.F.A. (51st Highland) Division which was fighting in the Operations at Cambrai, where he would have been wounded, dying of wounds on 13th October 1918.
Joseph was buried at Ramillies British Cemetery, near Cambrai, France, in row D grave 4. The village of Ramillies was captured by the Canadian Corps on the night of 8th – 9th October 1918. The original cemetery contained 93 graves dating from 30th September to 17th October. Joseph Jordan was a bombardier aged 26 when he died.
Joseph Jordan qualified for the 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.

Alexander Jordan was two years older than Joseph. He was 5ft 8 ins tall. He was a shop assistant at Wigan where he enlisted on 16th February 1916. Alexander was posted to the 10th (Reserve) Battalion The King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) for basic training at Wareham, Dorset. Alexander was appointed a Lance-corporal on 16th April 1916 and was additionally trained in grenade throwing.
On 8th July 1916, Alexander was posted overseas to the 6th Battalion K.O.R.L. which was serving in Mesopotamia at the time, with the 13th (Western) Division. The 6th Battalion K.O.R.L. was instrumental in the relief of Kut and in capturing Baghdad in March 1917. See:
While in Mesopotamia in March 1917 Alexander suffered “I.C.T. Feet” (inflamed connective tissue) which was a form of suppurating skin disease (Pyoderma) caused mainly due to parasitic infection. He was treated at 39 Field Ambulance R.A.M.C. at Amara.
On 28th July 1917 Alexander was admitted to 31 British Stationary Hospital Baghdad suffering from the effects of heat. He was seriously ill on admission and “all treatment was unsuccessful”. On 2nd August 1917, he was reported “dangerously ill”. Two days later, on 4th August 1917, he died in hospital of pneumonia “due to Field operations” i.e. the extreme heat endured by the soldiers.
Alexander was buried at Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery, plot XI, row K, grave 10. For war graves information see:
Alexander qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
With kind regards,
Reply from: Alan Jermyn
Date: Monday 19th September 2016 at 10:24 PM

Hi Alan

Thank you so much for this amazing report on the two brothers , I am so grateful to you for the detail and information , it really gives me an insight into the ordeals they must have gone through .
Thank you once again for your prompt response and effort .

Kind regards
Reply from: Alan Jermyn
Date: Monday 19th September 2016 at 11:04 PM

Hi Alan,
Is it possible for your help in giving me some idea of my Grand fathers life in the boer war his name was Harry Jermyn whose father was Henry Jermyn who they lived initially in Altringham ,Manchester Harry was a bandsman who went to SAfrica and l believe he was at Lady Smith during the siege by the Boers.

Kind regards
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 12:14 PM

Dear Alan,
I do not research the Second Anglo Boer War on this forum. Army records from the period are available on the website (pay as you go from about £6). The records are copyright of Findmypast.
With kind regards,
Reply from: Alan Jermyn
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 3:08 PM


Thank you I will try that site , is it possible in the future to ask you about my wife's Grand father who served in the 1st world war

Kind regards

Reply from: Alan Jermyn
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 8:12 PM


Thank you I will try that site , is it possible in the future to ask you about my wife's Grand father who served in the 1st world war

Kind regards

Reply from: Dear Alan
Date: Tuesday 20th September 2016 at 8:58 PM

Yes, of course. I have access to First World War records that can be transcribed. The First World War is my subject - and one war is enough!
Looking forward to hearing from you,

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