Circle City Communities

Alan Greveson's World War I Forum (Page 128)

The forum has 164 pages containing 2285 messages
-10   Prev Page   124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132   Next Page   10+

Posted by: Perry Nz {Email left}
Location: Auckland Nz
Date: Thursday 21st October 2010 at 12:32 AM
Hi Alan,
I've read your posts and you have done some marvellous work. I wonder if you can help me.

I have got some records and research and am trying to piece together to get a better picture.

Michael Connor (my maternal Grandfather) in picture was in the Kings Liverpool Rgt.

We can tell by the cap badge. What I'm trying to acertain is which battalion as there were 49.

I have medal roll information for two records both of which suggest a Michael Connor in the 4th (Extra reserve) Battalion

the MIC for both records 11655 and 25269 the former the individual may be too young.

Question would the battalion keep recruiting/replacing men once deployed, is records say he was deployed in France 30 Nov 1915?

Can you confirm that the cap badge is one worn by the 4th extra reserve? I know the cap badge was worn by the 7th and 9th battalions?

Also I believe he was quite young B. July 1899 and was in a liverpool orphanage so would it be likely for him to go direct to the army?-Not sure you can answer that

/Users/perrycornish/Desktop/MichaelConnor.jpg

your views would be much appreciated
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 21st October 2010 at 7:01 PM

Dear Perry,
The difficulty with Medal Rolls Index cards is that they cannot be matched to an individual unless you already know the soldier's regimental number. The regimental numbers on the cards don't always provide an indication of the battalion as many battalions used the same numbers.
There were three soldiers called Michael Connor who qualified for medals with The King's (Liverpool Regiment). The first was numbered 25269. This man had two index cards, one in the name Michael Connor; the other Michael Conner. He enlisted on 10.9.1915. He was discharged because of sickness on 30.6.1916. He regiment was shown as Liverpool Regiment Depot. As soldiers who were struck off the strength of a fighting battalion because of wounds or sickness were administered by the Regimental Depot while in hospital in the UK, this card does not indicate a battalion. A second card for this man, spelled Conner, showed he entered France on 30.11.1915.
If this man entered France with his battalion he would have served in the 18th, 19th or 20th Battalions as they were the only battalions of the King's that landed in France later in the month of November 1915. Equally, he could have been part of a draft of replacements for any other battalion already serving in France.
The card for Michael Conner 11655 showed he entered France on 1.5.1915. This may have been with the 8th Battalion which is recorded as having entered France on 3.5.1915. (Some cards showed the date a man entered a theatre of war, others showed the date he left England.) This man was granted the Silver War Badge for sickness or wounds and was "dis"[charged] from the army on an unspecified date.
The third Michael Connor was 7255 King's Liverpool Regiment who later transferred to the Royal Munster Fusiliers. This man did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star for service abroad before December 31st 1915, therefore he did not serve overseas until after January 1st 1916.
No service records appear to have survived for these three men so it is not possible to identify them further.
There is nothing to indicate service with the 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion which went to France on 6.3.1915. Do you have evidence he served with that battalion?
The date of entry shown on the index card can indicate the deployment of a whole battalion, or as you suggest, the deployment of a draft of replacements to a battalion already serving at the front.
All battalions of the regiment would wear the regiment's cap badge.
I am not able to see the photograph so I cannot comment on it I'm afraid.

In the pre-war census there were two Michael Connors who were resident in institutions. One was shown as aged 14 the other aged 11 on census night in April 1911. If Michael Connor was born in July 1899 he would have been shown as aged 11 in the census. The 11 year old Michael Connor was a schoolboy living at the St George's R.C. Certified Industrial School for Boys, West Derby Road, Liverpool. This Industrial School had been founded in 1854 by Belgian nuns and moved to a former fever hospital in West Derby Road in 1863.

At the outbreak of war this Michael Connor would have been 15 years old. If he joined the army under-age, any of the medal cards could apply to him, providing he served abroad and qualified for medals. If he joined the army by being conscripted when he was eighteen in 1917 he may have only served in the UK and therefore there would be no medal index card for him. If he joined at the age of 18, the most applicable index card would be the one for 7255 who did not serve abroad until sometime after January 1st 1916.

In conclusion, it is not possible to identify a soldier by the medal index cards alone unless you already know his regimental number.

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Perry Nz
Date: Thursday 21st October 2010 at 9:11 PM

Thank you so much Alan

Your reasoning is very clear. Your research fantastic

I have not heard of that school. So will investigate. I know that as his parents didn't die until 1912 so maybe not that individual. It makes the puzzle that much harder. I think I mentioned that I have the medal records for the MIC cards 11625 and 25269 which show a soldier of the 4 th extra reserve. So the question would be could he have joined the kings liverpool 4th extra reserve as a replacement in 1915 aged 16?

Thanks again and best wishes

Perry




Posted by: Christine Dawson {Email left}
Location: Edinburgh
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 1:08 AM
I am trying to find out more about my grandfather , Frank Amager Dawson , who was a regular soldier serving in India prior to WW1 and he returned to India after the war as my father was born there in 1921.

He was in the 92nd battery RFA as a gunner and a cook and stationed in Trimulgherry in 1911.

From his war record card he was in the Balkans so I presume that was Gallipolli.
I have also been told that he was in France where he was awarded an MM(which the family have) but have been unable to find this on the London Gazette lists.

Where can I find out more about his Military service in India and also his service during WW1?
Thanks for any help.
Christine Dawson
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 4:44 PM

Dear Christine,
The award of Frank Dawson's Military Medal was published in the London Gazette Issue number 29953 Page number: 1751 on 19 February 1917.
"War Office,19th February, 1917. His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to award the Military Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned Non-Commissioned Officers and
Men" (London Gazette 19 February 1917 Page 1749)...
"37636 Actg. Sjt. F. A. Dawson, R.F.A." (London Gazette 19 February 1917 Page 1751)
Search in First World War and enter the exact phrase F A Dawson then look for the issue of 19 February 1919 in the results.
There is no citation for the award. However, you may be interested in a book that is available which lists the awards of the artillerymen of the 17th Brigade RFA serving with 29 Division. It is "29th Division Artillery War Record and Honours" by Lt-Col R M Johnson (1921) reprinted 2004 Naval and Military Press ISBN: 9781843429760. See the National Army Museum website shop:-
http://books.national-army-museum.ac.uk/29th-divisional-artillery-war-record-and-honours-book-1915-1918-pr-26509.html
The birth of Frank Armiger Dawson was registered in Swaffham, Norfolk, England, in April-May-June 1884 (England GRO Births Q2 1884 Swaffham vol 4b 384). He was born at Necton, Norfolk, the son of Esdras and Elizabeth Dawson. In the pre-war England census he was shown as Frank Amager Dawson serving as a 27 year old gunner in the 92nd Battery Royal Field Artillery with the 17th Brigade RFA which was stationed at Trimulgherry, Deccan, India. His entry showed he was employed as a cook in civilian life. An Artillery Brigade was a man's "family unit" and had four batteries. During the First World War the batteries were given letters A to D and the Brigade number was shown in Roman numerals: XVII Brigade. XVII Brigade was one of the brigades that fought with the army's 29th Division.

A Medal Rolls Index card for Frank A. Dawson 37636 RFA showed he was a bombardier who entered his first theatre of war on 25th July 1915 (27/7/15). The theatre of war was (2B) Balkans. 2B indicated Gallipoli. He was later promoted to sergeant.

This date of entry doesn't match that of the 29th Division. The Division landed at Cape Helles on Gallipoli on 25 April 1915. Frank Dawson may have been in a rear party; he may have transferred to another unit; or the medal card has shown the wrong date: possibly transposing a 4 to a 7. The XVII Brigade remained with the 29th Division, so if Frank remained with the XVII Brigade he should have moved with that Division in the First World War. The XVII Brigade was at Allahbad, India at the outbreak of war and was mobilized on 19th of January 1915 after the War Office was able to replace its regular troops in India with Territorials from Britain. Many of the units from India were recalled to England to form the 29th Division which was expecting to serve in France. The Division trained and formed up in the Nuneaton area where it learned it was to be sent to Gallipoli. The Division embarked at Avonmouth on 16-22 March 1915 and sailed via Malta to Alexandria in Egypt. From there it moved to Mudros, a harbour on the Greek island of Lemnos which was the jumping off point for the Dardanelles. The landing was made at Cape Helles on Gallipoli on 25 April 1915 and when Gallipoli was evacuated on 7-8 January 1916, the Division returned to Egypt. On 25 February 1916 the Division was warned to sail for France where it arrived at Marseilles and moved to the area east of Pont Remy by 29th March 1916. The Division remained on the Western Front for the remainder of the war. For details of its major engagements see:
http://www.1914-1918.net/29div.htm
At the end of the war XVII brigade RFA was at Beaureux, (East of Celles in Belgium) on 10th November 1918 and at the river Rhosnes at 11am on November 11th 1918. The 29th Division then formed part of the army that occupied Germany and became the Southern Division of the Army of Occupation of the Rhine in April 1919. In 1922 the XVII Brigade joined the 28th Division which moved to Turkey.
The war diaries of the XVII Brigade RFA are held at the UK National Archives at Kew in Catalogue references WO 95/4308 (1915) and WO 95/2291 (1916 to 1919).
There is a published history of the 29th Division. See:
http://www.naval-military-press.com/product.php?productid=20478&cat=0&page=1
For the peacetime deployment of the XVII Brigade the Museum of the Royal regiment of Artillery may be able to help. See:
http://www.firepower.org.uk/
If Frank was still in the army in 1920-21 his service record may still be held by the Ministry of Defence. The MoD will release certain amounts of information depending on whether you are next of kin or not. You can apply using the forms for next of kin, or with permission of next of kin, or as a general enquirer. See:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
You may need proof of death; date of birth; next of kin's permission unless you are the direct next of kin; a cheque and completed forms Part 1 and 2. The next of kin form (Part 1) is for completion by the next of kin of deceased service personnel (or enquirers with the consent of next of kin). Look for "Service records publications" under "Related pages" and follow the instructions. The Part 2 form is entitled: "Request forms for service personnel Army" found under "Related Pages". A cheque for GBP 30 should be made payable to "The MoD Accounting Officer" and sent to Army Personnel Centre Secretariat, Disclosures 2, Mail Point 515, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX Scotland with all the paperwork.

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Christine Dawson
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 7:07 PM

Hi Alan,
As stated by others on this site , your knowledge is amazing and comprehensive!
Thank you so much for all the info and advice, which was sent so speedily, and is so detailed.
Regards ,
Christine


Posted by: Alexander {Email left}
Location: Retford Nott S
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 7:15 PM
Hello Alan,

I have another Victorian teaser to trace, I have a brass engraved Officers plate with the name S.C Lindsay-Bucknall 79th Highlanders.
A search of the census came up with a Charles Samuel Linsay Bucknall born in Ireland 1842, a resident of Hammersmith London.
Have i got the right chap but using Charles as a first name? or is this going to be another on the list to look up at the London Records Office?!
Many thanks,
Alex.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 8:30 PM

Dear Alex,
"Historical Records of the 79th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders" cites a Samuel Charles Lindsay Bucknall purchasing a commission as an Ensign on 21st October 1862. A Charles S Lindsay-Bucknall died aged 81 at Hammersmith in 1923 (born 1842). A C. Linsay Bucknall, aged 68 (born 1843) was described in the 1911 census as "Late Capt 79th High." He was married to Katerine (sic) who had had one child that had died. There were no other children.
A Samuel Charles L Bucknall married Katherine Henrietta M Farrant at Elham in Kent in 1872 (GRO Marriages Q2 1872 Elham Volume: 2a Page: 1319 ). In the 1881 and 1891 censuses the couple were recorded as Charles and Katherine Bucknall (or Bucknell).
This provides evidence that Samuel Charles Lindsay Bucknall of the 79th Cameron Highlanders referred to himself as Charles Lindsay Bucknall. Therefore the engraved brass plate is that of Samuel Charles Lindsay Bucknall.
The "London Gazette" recorded: "79th Foot, Samuel Charles Lindsay Bucknall, Gent., to be Ensign, by purchase, vice [in place of] Glascock, [who has been] promoted in [to] the 3rd West India Regiment. Dated 21st October, 1862." (London Gazette October 21 1862 page 4990).
He was promoted to Lieutenant on June 15th 1866. He retired as a Captain in 1878. "79th Foot, Captain Samuel Charles Lindsay Bucknall retires from the Service, receiving a gratuity. Dated 13th July, 1878. (London Gazette July 12 1878 page 4100)
There will be more entries for him and what appears to be his brother John in the London Gazette which is searchable online. See:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
For a history of the 79th see:
http://www.qohldrs.co.uk/html/cameron_hldrs_full_hist1.htm
His service record would be at The National Archives.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Alexander
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 8:56 PM

Wow, Alan that was fast!

Many thanks for confirming that and for pointing me in the right direction, your information has yet again been, been very helpful.
Looks like I have another one to add to the list to look for when I get down to London.
Kind regards.
Alex.


Posted by: Doreen
Location: Wakefield
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 7:00 PM
Dear Alan
You gave myself and my sisters a lot of information about our Grandfathers.
So I told Averal to get in touch with you for info.
I noticed she sent a message to you 25th September but there is no Reply
has this been over looked.Averal is the editor of Down Your Way.She was asking for information in this book so I got in touch with her.
Hope you can help her Doreen
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 7:22 PM

Dear Doreen,
Unfortunately I am not able to provide information about Second World War service personnel as their records are not in the public domain. If Averil is not a next of kin she could make a general inquiry at the Ministry of Defence. See
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
You will need proof of death; date of birth; or service number. For those who are not the immediate next of kin, and who are applying without the consent of the immediate next of kin, download and complete the Application Part 1 General Enquirer's form (see the "Related Pages") and the Application Part 2 form for the RAF. The forms for the three Services can be found in the Service Records publications link. The Royal Air Force (RAF) search document (Part 2) must be completed to request the disclosure of information held on the personnel records of deceased members of the RAF.
You must include a search payment [Cheque for 30 pounds Sterling per record requested] made payable to 'HMG Sub Account 3627'. When the paperwork has been completed it should be sent to RAF 3rd Party Disclosure Team, Room 14, Trenchard Hall, RAF Cranwell, Sleaford, LINCS, NG34 8HB.
Kind regards,
Alan


Posted by: Cookie {Email left}
Location: Colchester Essex
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 9:48 AM
Good morning friends,

I hav e recently been handed various effects belonging to my Father-in-law. The Family told me years ago that -

ALBERT COOK born 1898 in Bures, Suffolk, England fought in the 1914/1918 War.
He lied about his age, joined up at 16 and spent his 17th birthday in the trenches.
I do know he received the Military Medal. Why we do know know.
He joined the Essex Regiment pte. 3/2798 and then
the Suffolk Regiment - 70628
Hwe was shot twice, had shrapnel wounds and was gassed.
He was a `runner`

I am housebound and rely on my PC for information. (Silver surfer and not a good one). I joined Ancestry.com to try and trace his War records. But did not get on very well at all. Would his `date of birth given` be one reason why I cannot trace records.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 7:10 PM

Dear Cookie,
Most army service records from the First World War were destroyed by bombing in September 1940. Those that have survived are on the Ancestry website. There appears to be no surviving record for Albert Cook.
His military medal should be listed in the London Gazette which is searchable online. See
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
Without knowing when he transferred from one regiment to another and without knowing in which battalion of the regiment he served it is not possible to suggest where he served.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Cookie
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 2:39 PM

Alan,
Thank you for replying. I have just discovered a Certificate document attached to the back of a photograph of Albert Cook in uniform.

The Certificate reads as follows:

No.3/2798 - Pte A. Cook - The Essex Regiment

I have read with great pleasure the Report of your Regimental Commander and Brigade Commander regarding your gallant conduct and devotion to duty in the Field on the 8th August 1918.

Signature ? R.P. Lee - Major General (Commanding 18th Division).

I looked up the Supplement to the London Gazette, 24th January, 1919 and sure enough there is listed the following -

3/2798 Pte.Cook, A. 10th Bn. (Bures) - Essex Regiment.

I can only presume he joined the Suffolk Regiment when he went to India after the end of the 1914/1918 War.

So that is another little bit slotted into his Army Career.

Thank you.

Irene Cooke (Cookie)
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 5:07 PM

Dear Irene,
That's a very useful find.
The reason why Albert Cook's regimental number didn't help place him was because the pre-fix 3 refers to the 3rd Battalion Essex Regiment. The 3rd Battalion in any regiment was its depot and training battalion and did not serve overseas. It was apparent Albert must have served in another battalion of the Essex Regiment after completing his training. You have now found the battalion: the 10th Battalion Essex Regiment which did serve with the 18th Division in the 53rd Infantry Brigade. A Medal Rolls Index card for A. Cook No 3/2798 recorded that he entered France on 8th September 1915. The 10th Battalion had been in France since 26 July 1915, so Albert was probably part of a draft of replacements. He may not have served with the 10th Battalion throughout the war but you have evidence he was with them in August 1918. The 8th of August was the opening day of the Battle of Amiens. You can see more about the 18th Division at:
http://www.1914-1918.net/18div.htm
and the Battle of Amiens at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens_%281918%29
The war diary of the 10th Battalion Essex Regiment is available to download from the National Archives website for a fee of GBP 3-50. It is "53 INFANTRY BRIGADE: 10 Battalion Essex Regiment 1915 July - 1919 Apr. Date 1914- 1922" in Catalogue reference WO 95/2038
If Albert continued to serve in the army after 1920 his service record may still be held by the Ministry of Defence.
The MoD will release certain amounts of information depending on whether you are next of kin or not. You can apply using the forms for next of kin, or with permission of next of kin, or as a general enquirer. See:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
You may need proof of death; date of birth; next of kin's permission unless you are the direct next of kin; a cheque and completed forms Part 1 and 2. The next of kin form (Part 1) is for completion by the next of kin of deceased service personnel (or enquirers with the consent of next of kin). Look for "Service records publications" under "Related pages" and follow the instructions. The Part 2 form is entitled: "Request forms for service personnel Army" found under "Related Pages". A cheque for GBP 30 should be made payable to "The MoD Accounting Officer" and sent to Army Personnel Centre Secretariat, Disclosures 2, Mail Point 515, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX Scotland with all the paperwork.
Kind regards,
Alan


Posted by: Graham {Email left}
Location: Melbourne Aus
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 8:11 AM
Dear ASC Experts, my friend's father M/351061 Pte. Arthur Birchall was conscripted into the ASC in 1917 after TF Yeomanry service until 1916 - both his TF record (in Pensions) and part ASC army service record have survived. He went to Base M.T. Depot Alexandria in Jan 1918 and was later posted to 956 M.T. Company and later still to a "Cps. Sig. Coy RE" but the number prefix is too feint to read plus another prefix abbreviation that could be "Res"? I would be most grateful for any information on 956 MT Coy ASC so that I can pinpoint were in Egypt or Palestine he was deployed and what higher formation this unit reported to. Also does "Cps" mean "Corps" or somthing else? Thank you in advance, Graham in Melbourne.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 4:59 PM

Dear Graham,
Arthur Birchall was conscripted into the army on November 23rd 1917. He stated he had previously served with the Shropshire Yeomanry which was in existence before the war as a part-time Territorial Force of volunteers. His record does not state when he served with the Shropshire Yeomanry. His service record showed his next of kin was his father, George Birchall of Little Ness, Shrewsbury. In the pre-war England census Arthur Birchall aged 18, born Monks Coppenhall, Cheshire, was shown living at Lower House Farm, Little Ness, Shrewsbury with his father George. He was the son of George and Frances Birchall. His birth appears to have been registered at Nantwich, Cheshire in 1892 (England GRO Births Q3 1892 Nantwich Volume 8A Page 371).

A pensions record for an Arthur Birchall who joined the Shropshire Light Infantry in 1916 showed he was aged 25 with his mother Elizabeth as next of kin. She lived at Middlewich, Cheshire and this Arthur Birchall was shown in the pre-war census as living with William and Elizabeth Birchall at Darlington Street, Middlewich. This Arthur Birchall was builder's clerk of works and in the census he was shown as an apprentice to his father, a building contractor. He was unfit for active service and was transferred to the Army Pay Corps and did not leave England.

The only record for Arthur Birchall, M351061is his service record. An Army Medal Rolls Index card recorded he was Private M351061 in the ASC and qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. As he did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star for service abroad before December 31st 1915 he did not serve abroad until after January 1st 1916.

His service record shows he was initially examined on 24th June 1916 (the date 10 May 1916 was struck through) and was not called-up until November 3rd 1917 when he was attested (sworn in) at Birmingham where he was then living and working as a motor fitter. He was sent to the No 1 Mechanical Transport Reserve Depot at Grove Park, Greenwich in London and joined the ASC on November 23rd 1917 aged 25. He passed his learner's test on the Ford motor vehicle on 4th December 1917 and was granted qualified driver's rate of pay from 5th December 1917. On 23rd January 1918 he was sent via Southampton, Cherbourg and Taranto in Italy to embark on the Hired Transport "Abbassia", arriving at Alexandria, Egypt, on 10th February 1918. He would have gone to the Base Depot MT, Egyptian Expeditionary Force, which was known as 500 Company ASC, based at Alexandria, before being posted to a Mechanical Transport Company. He was posted to 956 MT Company ASC which had been formed in May 1917 as a Ford van company to serve with the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. The company served in Palestine although I have not found which Division it served with. The operations in Palestine at that time were the Operations in the Jordan Valley (19 February - 4 May); The Battles of Megiddo, Sharon and Nablus (19 - 25 September); the Final Offensive beyond the Jordan (to 26 October) followed by the Armistice with the Turks on 31st October 1918.

Arthur was admitted to hospital in April 1914. His record is barely legible but it appears to show he was at 7(?) Stationery Hospital and 70 (?) General Hospital until May 1918. He then returned to 956 MT Company on 25th June 1918 and passed through the MT Base Depot and was posted on 25th September 1918 to Des Cps Sig Coy RE.

The Signals Companies of the Royal Engineers usually had about 162 men and were attached to a Division and given the number of that Division. What appears to be "Des Cps Sig Coy" does not appear to relate to a Division. But what had happened in Egypt and Palestine in 1918 was that General Allenby lost some 60,000 men who were sent to France to reinforce the counter-attacks against the advancing enemy there. Consequently there was a re-organisation in the Egyptian Expeditionary Force with the removed British soldiers being replaced by soldiers from India. Meanwhile the Australian and New Zealand companies of the Cameliers were converted to Light Horse regiments and the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions were formed, with the Anzac mounted divisions, into the Desert Mounted Corps. It is my suggestion that "Des Cps" might be the Desert Mounted Corps and thus the
Desert Corps Signal Company. The next line of Arthur's service record appears to show an entry from "Sig Sgt [Sect?] 5 C_v Div" which could be 5 Cavalry Division. The entry read "attached 14 June 1919". The expressions "posted" and "attached" indicate Arthur was still serving with the ASC and was acting in an ASC role with the Signals Company, possibly still as a driver.
Arthur served in Egypt until 30th March 1920. He sailed back to the UK between 31st March 1920 and 14th April 1920. He served at home from 15th April 1920 until 13th May 1920. He was discharged from the army under Kings Regulations para 392 xxviii which referred to complete discharge after the cessation of the Class Z Reserve which was in case the Armistice did not hold. Class Z Reserve service was deemed to have ended on March 31st 1920, therefore Arthur was free to go home.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Graham Caldwell
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 9:39 PM

Dear Alan,
That was one of the most comprehesive responses to a post that I've seen and I thank you sincerely for the amount of detail. Even on maximum magnification for the very feint record of service I did not make out the extra fine details and fill in the blanks that you have using your WW1 unit knowledge. I particually found the Egyptian Expeditionary Force ASC units you identified helpful because I can know go check out the higher formations these were attached to and plot Arthur Birchall's path across Palestine in 1918.
Warm regards Graham in Melbourne.


Posted by: Alec Crawford {Email left}
Location: Liverpool
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 8:51 PM
Alan,
I wonder if you can help me. My Mum's brother Robert Stopforth died I believe in Operation Market Garden. His Commonwealth War Graves Commission record shows:
3663831 1st Bn The Herefordshire Regiment Kings Shropshire Light Infantry. Died aged 36 on 17th October 1944 and buried at Hotton War Cemetary.
Is there any further information about him available?
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 12:18 PM

Dear Alec,
You will need to apply for Robert Stopforth's service record from the UK Ministry of Defence. He appears to have served with the King's Shropshire Light Infantry and died while with the 1st Bn Herefordshire Regiment, so it is not clear whether he was transferred or attached to the Herefords.

The MoD will release certain amounts of information depending on whether you are next of kin or not. You can apply using the forms for next of kin, or with permission of next of kin, or as a general enquirer. See:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
You may need proof of death; date of birth; next of kin's permission unless you are the direct next of kin; a cheque and completed forms Part 1 and 2. The next of kin form (Part 1) is for completion by the next of kin of deceased service personnel (or enquirers with the consent of next of kin). Look for "Service records publications" under "Related pages" and follow the instructions. The Part 2 form is entitled: "Request forms for service personnel Army" found under "Related Pages". A cheque for GBP 30 should be made payable to "The MoD Accounting Officer" and sent to Army Personnel Centre Secretariat, Disclosures 2, Mail Point 515, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX Scotland with all the paperwork.
Kind regards,
Alan


Posted by: Helen Warwick {Email left}
Location: Birmingham
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 1:52 PM
My grandfather, Gordon Henry Warwick (1886-1969) joined the Army in December 1915 in the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment (Sherwood Foresters) and his medal card (G.H. Warwick) shows him ending the war as a Sapper (no. 144964) in the Royal Engineers Tun Dep Co, being invalided out on 18 Aug 1918, having served on the Western Front, by the medals that he was awarded.
I have several queries - was that a tunnelling Department and would he have been assigned as a former colliery employee (a Banksman)?
- the only service he ever mentioned was in Cassiobery Park in Watford where he was supposed to have been a drill instructor, which seems an unlikely occupation, although I have pictures of him at Watford with some callow looking recruits
- he was apparently disciplined and demoted from an NCO rank for swearing at an officer and never swore again for the rest of his life. Would that have led to transfer to the Royal engineers?
- what sort of work did the tunnelers do - was it all undermining enemy lines?

Unfortunately his service records no longer exist - is it possible to establish enything about his service?
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 10:12 PM

Dear Helen,
Unfortunately there is no evidence the Medal Rolls Index card for G H Warwick relates to Gordon Henry Warwick. There is no evidence on the card that he served on the Western Front. The card simply states he qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal for service overseas between 1914 and 1919. He also qualified for the Silver War Badge for being discharged before the end of the war through wounds or sickness. There is no evidence this man served with the Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment). Medal index cards exist only for soldiers who served abroad from the UK and qualified for medals. Those who served at home did not qualify for medals. If he only mentioned service as a drill instructor it is possible no medal index card exists for him.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Helen Warwick
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 8:52 PM

I think you are right and that is not his medal card - I have searched around a bit and found his Section of Platoon Roll Book for No 5 Platoon. His number was 2444 and His lance Corporal was I Noton (no 2459). He enlisted on 8th Oct 1914 for the duration. I have now tried looking for any of his platoon in the medal card index using the regimental number and name but cannot find anybody matching in number. There was a lance-corporal under him, and 12 privates, of whom there were 2 signallers, a shoemaker, one in transport and a machine gunner. The Platoon had four unequal sections, each with two or three senior NCOs in charge.
I know for certain that he was in the Nottingham and Derbyshire Regiment as I have his wedding photograph and some other pictures in uniform. Do you know if they were in Watford during the IWW?
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 20th October 2010 at 11:03 PM

Dear Helen,
That's a very useful discovery. The reason why you couldn't find Corporal Noton in the Medal Rolls Index cards is because he didn't serve abroad so he did not qualify for any medals. The evidence for this is in the service record of Thomas David Noton No. 2459 Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment). The "I" in the section roll book was probably a "T". Thomas Noton volunteered in 1914 and was then medically classified for Home Service only: hence no medals. His service record is on the Ancestry website indexed by name and the number 2489, but documents show it was 2459 before being changed to a six-digit number in 1917 (there was a re-numbering of all Territorial Force battalions in 1917).

Did the Sherwood Foresters serve in Watford? The Sherwood Foresters raised 32 battalions in the First World War and they trained in the Midlands and elsewhere. Two second-line, or training battalions, the 2nd/5th and the 2nd/6th Battalions, did move around: Derby, Chesterfield, Buxton, Luton, Dunstable and from August 9th 1915 to 26 April 1916 they were based at...Watford. In April 1916 they moved to Ireland.

Thomas D Noton's record showed he was at Watford in the 2nd/6th Battalion, but left the battalion on 31st March 1916. That dates the section roll book before March 1916.

Therefore the section roll book places Gordon H Warwick in the 2nd/6th Battalion Sherwood Foresters. His regimental number was very close to Thomas Noton's and Thomas enlisted at Bakewell on 8th October 1914. He was 36 and had a poor heart.

To explain the numbers: The 5th and 6th Battalions of the Sherwood Foresters were pre-war Territorial Force battalions made up of part-time volunteers whose role was Home Defence. The 6th Battalion was based at Corporation Street, Chesterfield. When these battalions were "embodied" on August 5th 1914 into the regular army for service during the war they were eventually moved from Home Defence to the British Expeditionary Force serving overseas in 1915. To fill the gap behind them the Territorial Force was allowed to recruit sister battalions from scratch which formed the training or "reserve" battalions that could continue home defence or provide drafts of battle casualty replacements to the first line battalions serving abroad. These duplicate battalions gave rise to the fractional numbers. So the 6th Battalion Sherwood Foresters became the 1st/6th Battalion and the newly-recruited wartime volunteers became the nucleus of the 2nd/6th Battalion which was raised in Chesterfield from 14th September 1914.

The 2nd/6th Battalion did eventually go to France on 25th February 1917. By that time it would have seen many hundreds of recruits pass through its ranks (drilled by Gordon Warwick) and distributed as drafts of replacements to other battalions. Those of its members who did not serve abroad would have remained in England and probably moved to the 3rd/6th Battalion which only saw home service in training and coastal defence at Louth and Saltfleet in 1917 and 1918.

It is plausible that Gordon Warwick (depending on his age and health) served only in the UK. Do keep searching for clues, because we are now making progress.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Helen Warwick
Date: Sunday 24th October 2010 at 9:56 PM

Thank you, that chimes in with what little I remembered my grandfather telling me. The platoon book contained a list of his equipment, cutley, a toothbrush, shaving brush, two shirts, a coat, four pairs of socks , one pair boots, a cap and two pairs pants. He either had no trousers or no underpants which seemed odd!
On a linked idea. My father, Gordon Thomas Warwick like his father spent much of his service in training units at Larkhill, Sennybridge, Llanidloes etc and volunteered in Sept 1939 but was immediately placed on the reserve, as an OTC officer at one of the universities. He wasn't called until 15 Feb 1940 when he was embodied as a gunner and then sent to OCTU in May 1940. Would he have been paid as on the reserve or if not would he had to find other work?
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 25th October 2010 at 3:16 PM

Dear Helen,
Whether your father was paid while on reserve is not clear as it would depend on which reserve he was serving. If he had already left the regular army in peace-time, he may have received an income for maintaining his annual training commitment. It is possible that he was not serving as a reserve soldier with previous experience. At the outbreak of war in 1939 men were compulsorily conscripted into the services. The first to be required to register were those aged between 20 and 23. Having registered they would be placed on reserve until called-up for military service.
If your father served with an OTC at a university he was either a student who was in the OTC or a member of staff who was also an officer in the OTC training the students. As an officer he would have been paid according to the amount of time he spent in uniform while training students at weekends or annual camp. If he were simply waiting to join the army between registering and being called-up he would have maintained his civilian job.

Gordon Warwick's kit list does appear to be incomplete. His coat would have been a Great Coat which was considered "Public clothing" paid at Government cost and valued at 24 shillings (one pound four shillings). His "Personal Clothing" issued from the battalion's stores would include 2 pairs of boots (12 shillings and three-pence a pair); 1 cap (one shilling and sixpence); 1 pair trousers (six shillings and tenpence); 1 jacket (nine shillings and ninepence); 2 pairs drawers (two shillings and sixpence a pair) and 1 pair puttees (one shilling and tenpence). His "regimental necessities" were: 1 pair braces (nine pence ha'penny); 1 knife and fork (four pence ha'penny each); 1 razor (sixpence farthing); 2 pairs socks (one shilling and seven pence for two pairs) 3 shirts (thirteen shillings and nine pence for 3) a towel (nine pence farthing) and a cap comforter (sevenpence ha'penny).

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Helen Warwick
Date: Monday 25th October 2010 at 9:01 PM

My father had graduated from Bristol university in July 1939 and had been a student member of their OTC. He had gone to a British Association for the Advancement of Science in Dundee and travelling home overnight, walked into the house to hear "And consequently we are at war with Germany" on the radio. As far as I know he had no civilian job, although his scholarship was contingent upon his returning to Derbyshire to teach which he never did, so I wondered how he kept himself.

Thank you again for all your help. i shall be giving a donation to the BL shortly.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 25th October 2010 at 9:11 PM

Dear Helen,
If you can afford the fee, you can apply for your father's details from the September 1939 National Registration which provides the details people had to give for the National Registration Card. It would include his employment. The fee is 42 pounds. See

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/services/1939-register-service

Kind regards,
Alan


Posted by: Ian {Email left}
Location: Dronfield
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 12:34 PM
My Grandfather Edward Hardy, born 1889 served in the First World War with the Northumberland Fusiliers and then in 1918 passed a medical to join the RAF as a pilot.

I have WW1 medals for Edward Hardy, Regimental Number 8003 of the Northumberland Fusiliers who served in France 1915. These were passed on to me by my father who said they were his father Edwards.

I also have an Identity Disc for Edward Hardy, Regimental Number 16579, Northumberland Fusiliers who also served in the Machine Gun Corp, Reg. No. 8414. He served in the Balkans in 1915. This disc came from my cousin whose father was the other son of Edward and who had labelled it 'Fathers WW1.

I am sure you have guessed by now that these are 2 different people. Enquiries at the Northumberland Fusiliers Museum in Alnwick have given a lot of information about both men but nothing which helps me decide which is my Grandfather.

The Service Records of neither man appear to have survived the WW2 bombing of the London Records Office so no help there.

Has anyone any idea where I go from here?
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 9:19 PM

Dear Ian,
You cannot achieve positive identification of the two men with the information that you have. You will need to turn to other non-military sources. However, there are some clues.
Two Medal Rolls Index cards have survived for these men and they provide primary evidence that they are two separate individuals. The first card, for Edward Harvey 8003 Northumberland Fusiliers showed that he qualified for the 1914-15 Star as a Private. He first entered France on 9th September 1915. He later qualified for the British War and the Victory Medals in the rank of Acting Corporal. He survived the war and was transferred to the Class Z Reserve. The Class Z reserve was for soldiers who would be the first to be re-called if the Armistice failed to hold. If this man transferred to the RFC in 1918 it need not be shown on his medal card. If this man served in the RFC after 1920 his service record may be held by the Ministry of Defence. If he joined the RFC as a pilot he may have been commissioned in which case his service record may have survived with officers' service records at the National Archives before 1920 and with the MoD if he served after 1920.

The second medal card is for Sergeant Edward Hardy DCM MM. He went to Gallipoli on 10 July 1915 and later served in France. He earned the Military Medal followed by the Distinguished Conduct Medal. His DCM was earned with the Machine Gun Corps and was published in the London Gazette on February 1st 1919 page 2417. The citation was not published until the London Gazette of January 10th 1920 which stated: "8414 Sjt. E. Hardy, M.M., 6th Bn., M.G. Corps (Staithes). For conspicuous gallantry at St. Quentin, 18th September, 1918, as section serjeant. During .heavy shelling and intense machinegun fire, he went forward and selected the machine- gun positions in a most able manner. He then got the section into position, moving from gun to gun himself, directing fire and encouraging the men."

The clue here is that the man gave his address as Staithes.

If you know where your grandfather was born you can track him through the census and then compare his pre-war residences with the other Edward to see which man lived at or near Staithes. In 1911 there was an Edward Hardy born Thornton le Dale about 1884 living as a farm servant at Wykeham which is not that far away. If you can compare your grandfather's date of birth with the second Edward Hardy who was at Staithes you will know which is which by the DCM citation.

As gallantry medals were often reported in the local newspaper of the time it would be worth checking the Scarborough and Whitby papers of the period in the Scarborough local studies library.

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Ian
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 10:13 PM

Alan
Thanks for all that information. Where on earth did you find all that out in such a short time? I know about the link to Staithes and can't find any link in my family to that village.. My grandfather was born in Ushaw Moor, County Durham and, at the time of his marriage in 1915 was living in Benton Way, Wallsend, an address my grandmother continued to live at until the 1960's. My Grandfather died in 1920 of Pneumonia.

My instinct is to think I have the right medals and wrong identity disc but it still beggers the question "where on earth did the ID Disc come from".

Looking at maps of the River Tyne, it appears all the piers for loading ships were called 'Staithes' so whether someone has picked that up somewhere I know not but I'll keep looking.

Thanks again.

Ian
Reply from: David Short
Date: Tuesday 22nd February 2011 at 9:17 AM

Ian,
I can help solve the mystery for you. Edward Hardy DCM MM (8414/16579) was my wife's grandfather. We have his medals and they are inscribed 8414 or 16579. He was from the village of Staithes in North Yorkshire (north of Whitby). Consequently Edward Hardy (8003) was without doubt your grandfather. Your comment "where did the identity disc come from is interesting". I can only assume that your cousin found it in a sale somewhere, spotted the name and assumed it was your relation! One point - where did you get the information that "our" Edward served in the Balkans? As far as my wife knew, her grandfather served mainly in France, as stated by Alan above

kind regards

David

ds47uk (at) yahoo (dot) co (dot) uk
Reply from: Ian Hardy
Date: Thursday 24th February 2011 at 9:00 PM

David, It's wonderful to have solved the mystery. My reference to The Balkans may be geographically inaccurate (there's posh) but Alan says your Edward served in Gallipoli which is somewhere out that end of the Mediterranean.

Since you have your Edward's medals I'm sure you would like the identity disc to go with them. I am going away for several weeks but if you are prepared to put your e mail address on this forum I will contact you when I return towards the end of April

Best wishes

Ian


Posted by: Leah Kausman {Email left}
Location: Melbourne Australia
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 4:19 AM
How do I contact Alan Greveson?
Reply from: Website Editor
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 5:03 AM

Hi Leah,
Alan may not want to be contacted directly by email, as he would be inundated with requests to research relatives.

He does do research privately for a more detailed extensive search, but he obviously charges for this.

If you're wanting this, I can ask him if he can take any more work on at present.

Or, you can ask a question here for free.
Reply from: Leah Kausman
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 6:02 AM

I am trying to trace Henry (Harry) Kaufman, a brother of my grandfather. A sister of my grandfather is said to have hated Winston Churchill because her brother, Henry was killed in the British Army at the Dardanelles.
We have discovered three Henry or Harry Kaufman(s) who served in the British Forces.
1. Henry Kaufman, Lancashire Fusiliers, 19963, 1914-1920.
2. Harry Kaufman, Army Cyclist Corps 4966, 1914-1920.
3. Harry Kaufman, Royal Garrison Artillery, 71548, 1914-1920.
Is there any way of finding out which, if any, was the son of Julius and Rachel Kaufman, of Manchester?

I would be so grateful for your help.
Leah and Les Kausman
Melbourne, Australia
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 7:42 PM

Dear Leah and Les,
The documents to which you refer for Henry (Harry) Kaufman are Army Medal Rolls Index cards which do not identify a soldier other than by name, rank and number. None of these men died in the Dardanelles.
Some service records for soldiers called Kaufman (or its variants) have survived. Henry Kaufman of the Lancashire Fusiliers was born about 1896 and gave his father's name as Reuben.
Harry Kaufman of the Royal Garrison Artillery entered France on 12th October 12th 1915.
Harry Kaufman of the Army Cyclist Corps entered the theatre of war "2B" which was Gallipoli on August 6th 1915. This date would imply service in the 10th (Irish) Division or the 11th (Northern) Division. The Cyclist Corps did not fight on cycles in the Dardanelles but as infantrymen. The Divisional cyclist troops were discontinued after the summer of 1916 in the 11th Division which went to France in 1916. The 10th Division lost its cyclists in December 1916. It went to Egypt, Salonika and Palestine. This Harry Kaufman was transferred to the reserve on 27th March 1919, so he did not die.
A search of "Soldiers Died in the Great War" (HMSO 1921) and the CWGC Debt of Honour revealed the only service person named Kaufman who died at Gallipoli was an unidentified Samuel Kaufman of the Manchester Regiment. Of the two Samuel Kaufmans (with variants) who lived in Lancashire in the pre-war census neither was the son of Julius and Rachel.

Julius and Rachel Kaufman were described in the pre-war census as being of Russian nationality. The census return indicated they had been married 39 years and had had 11 children of which nine had survived. The family could not be found in the 1901 England census. The pre-war census and the 1891 census indicated their children were named Kate, Dora, Ettie, Manuel, Joseph (1881), Anne, Henry (1887/9), Simon (1891), Abram (1893).

An Army service record has survived for a Joseph Kaufman, born 1881, whose address was 141 Heywood Street, Manchester. He served for a year in England and did not serve abroad. A service record for an Abram Kaufman born 1893 indicated he was the son of Julius Kaufman of 141 Heywood Street, Manchester. This Abram Kaufman was a conscientious objector. As neither served abroad there are no medal index cards for these men.

There are no other Army medal index cards that appear to apply to Manuel or Simon.

Five men named Kaufman (or variants) are listed by the CWGC and "Soldiers Died in the Great War" as having died in the First World War. The CWGC Debt of Honour was searched for all branches of the services therefore it appears that no Kaufman (or variants) who died in the First World War served in the Navy or Flying Corps.

Not all UK soldiers' service records from the First World War have survived so the search for Kaufman (with variants) is frustrated. The Medal Rolls Index is considered to be complete but it does not normally identify soldiers by next of kin and only identifies those who qualified for medals. The medal index card for a Harry Kaufman who served at Gallipoli is not supported by any other evidence, although the card indicated he transferred to the reserve in 1919 and therefore survived the war.

Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Leah And Les Kausman
Date: Tuesday 19th October 2010 at 12:21 AM

Hi Alan,
Thank you so much. The speed and breadth of your reply is amazing. I believed that my grandfather Manuel (Mark) Kaufman was an only child, and it has taken me two years to find much of the information that you came back to me within "two minutes".

We lost track of Henry (Harry) Kaufman after he came to Australia in 1911. It is only when we discovered that his sister told her grandson that she hated Winston Churchill because her brother died at the Dardanelles, that we thought Henry might have gone back to England to enlist. You have found no evidence of this, so we will now look at Australian war records. Perhaps he enlisted with Australian forces, and died at Gallipoli? I imagine you do not have access to those records.
I will donate to the British Legion website because I really appreciate the work you are doing.
With thanks and best wishes,
Leah and Les


Posted by: Pete {Email left}
Location: Yorkshire
Date: Sunday 17th October 2010 at 9:58 PM
Hello Alan,
Trust you have enjoyed your few days break from answering all our queries.
You recently helped me with the service records of Lionel Walker, and I have now discovered that his brother Harold Walker was serving in the Royal Naval Reserve, and died on 6 October 1915 aged 27 aboard the "Brighton Queen" 8274 DA HMPMS. He was the son of Arabella and the late Joseph Albert Walker .

I know that you normally deal with Army records, but I wondered if you would be able to help me in this case, and if not are you able to tell me where I can find out please.

With many thanks

Pete
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 1:45 PM

Dear Pete,
Tracing Harold Walker will require a visit to the National Archives.
Service records of the Royal Naval Reserve are held at the National Archives at Kew. See
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/royalnavalreserve.htm?WT.lp=rg-3126
and
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/rnr.htm
Harold Walker's service number showed the suffix DA which indicated he was a deck hand. He was killed while serving on His Majesty's Paddle Mine Sweeper "Brighton Queen" which was sunk by a mine from the German submarine UC-5 (Herbert Pustkuchen), five miles west of Nieuwport on the Belgian coast. The explosion killed eight of the crew. See:
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?135782
Harold's name is on the Chatham Memorial commemorating those members of the Royal Navy who had no known grave, the majority of deaths having occurred at sea where no permanent memorial could be provided. The CWGC says: "An Admiralty committee recommended that the three manning ports in Great Britain - Chatham, Plymouth and Portsmouth - should each have an identical memorial of unmistakable naval form, an obelisk, which would serve as a leading mark for shipping".
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Pete
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 6:16 PM

Thank you Alan, once again you have come up trumps, and even though we will have to go to Kew to find out more, you have at least given us the help we needed in to where to start.

Thank you again

Pete


Posted by: Brosie {Email left}
Location: Arbroath
Date: Sunday 17th October 2010 at 9:09 PM
Hello Alan,
Hoping for any information about my grandmother's half brother.
John Robertson,born Paisley Renfrewshire about 1894.
No 655985, 7th Indian division ammunition column, royal field artillery driver.
died 25th october 1918, buried Beiruit war cemetery memorial reference 11.
The word died as opposed to killed is one question Alan ?.
The other one is John's age is unknown, was this usual in ww1.
Regards Brosie.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 12:50 PM

Dear Brosie,
It was never the role of a Graves Registration Unit and later the Imperial War Graves Commission (now CWGC) to record biographical details of a service person. Their role was to identify the burial place of each soldier and, after December 1915, provide a permanent grave. The Forces identified an individual by his surname, initials, rank, number and regiment. So war graves are recorded in the same way the military would have recorded an individual. In the 1920s when the war grave cemeteries were being created the CWGC wrote to soldiers' families and asked if they wished to record any further details. Some families did; others didn't. Some letters went unanswered. Perhaps one in five CWGC entries includes some biographical detail. Where a soldier is shown as "age unknown" it doesn't mean his age was unknown. It means the CWGC was not told his age.

The expression "died" was specific. It meant a soldier's death was not directly caused by enemy action. Deaths caused by enemy action were recorded as "killed in action" or if the soldier had reached medical care, "died of wounds". The expression "died" implied death by disease, sickness or accident. In the case of John Robinson buried in Beirut it almost certainly implied he had been in hospital in Beirut and had probably died of sickness such as malaria.
The CWGC Debt of Honour recorded that Driver John Robertson, 655985, RFA was serving with the 7th Indian Division Ammunition Column when he died. The evidence is that he served with the 1st/2nd Lowland Brigade from 1916 and his artillery brigade joined the 7th (Meerut) Division in April 1918 in Egypt.

No service record appears to have survived for this John Robertson. A Medal Rolls Index Card for John Robertson showed his original regimental number was 8325 with the RFA. His number was changed to 655985 with the RFA. This is indicative of the re-numbering of the Territorial Force in March 1917 when all T.F. soldiers were allotted new six-figure numbers as part of a general re-organisation. This indicated that whichever unit John was serving in it had originally existed before the war as a Territorial Force unit. John qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal but not the 1914-15 Star for service abroad before December 31st 1915. Therefore he did not serve abroad until after January 1st 1916. He was therefore probably part of a draft of reinforcements.
His new number, 655985 was in a series allotted to the 2nd Lowland Brigade Royal Artillery and the 2nd/2nd Lowland Brigade including 261 Brigade RA and 326 Brigade RA. The latter served at home and in Ireland, therefore going by the number alone, it would appear John served with the 261 Brigade Royal Artillery which supported the infantry of the army's 52nd (Lowland) Division. The Artillery used Roman numerals to designate their brigades, so the unit was the CCLXI (II Lowland) Brigade Royal Field Artillery which served with the 52nd Division. The II (2nd) Lowland artillery brigade had batteries originally from Irvine, Kilmarnock and Kirkcudbright, with the Lowland Divisional Ammunition Column from Ardrossan.
The 52nd Division moved to Gallipoli via Egypt in June 1915, but the artillery remained in Egypt. The Lowland Division itself returned to Egypt in January 1916 and moved to El Kantara and on 2 March took over as section of the Suez Canal defences. At some stage in 1916 John Robertson joined the Lowland Division's artillery in Egypt. The Division then took part in the Palestine Campaign, fighting at Dueidar on April 22nd 1916 and the Battle of Romani on August 4th and 5th 1916. They then fought at Gaza in the Second Battle of Gaza on 17th and 19th April 1917 and the Third Battle of Gaza in the first week of November 1917. They were engaged at Wadi el Hesi on November 8th 1917; the capture of Junction Station (14 November); the Battle of Nabi Samweil (20 - 24 November) and the Battle of Jaffa (21-22 December) including the passage of the Nahr-el-Auja .
The Division remained in the line near Arsuf until March 1918 when orders were received on 24 March that the Division would be relieved by the 7th (Meerut) Division and the Lowland Division would be sent to France.

However, a decision was made to keep the Lowland Division's artillery in the Middle East and transfer it to the 7th (Meerut) Indian Division, whose own artillery would go to France with the Lowland Division. On April 8th the Scottish artillerymen joined the 7th Meerut Division with John Robertson serving in the Divisional Ammunition Column (DAC). The DAC provided the transport and delivery of all ammunition between the ammunition dumps and the front line. During the summer of 1918 the 7th (Meerut) Division captured the 'North Sister' and 'South Sister' Hills on 8th June 1918 and raided 'Piffer Ridge' on 27th June 1918. It subsequently took part in General Edmund Allenby's advance through Palestine, including the Battle of Megiddo from 19 September to 1 October 1918, and its subsequent exploitation which was the culminating victory in General Allenby's campaign in Palestine .
Beirut was occupied by the 7th (Meerut) Division on 8 October 1918 when French warships were already in the harbour, and the 32nd and 15th Combined Clearing Hospitals were set up in the town.
John Roberston died on October 25th 1918 and is buried in grave 11 at the Beirut War Cemetery. See
http://www.cwgc.org/CWGCImgs/Beirut%20War%20Cem%20%281939-45%29.jpg
As this history is based on interpreting his regimental number, any mistakes are entirely mine.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Brosie
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 9:24 PM

Hello Alan,
Many thanks for your detailed reply to my questions about John Robertson, I have more
information than I hoped for thanks to yourself.

Although my Gran was his next of kin, according to my father www1 was never brought up
in any conversation in the house and the medals belonging to John were kept in a drawer.
Many many thanks .
Brosie.


Posted by: Lorraine Zima {Email left}
Location: Hempnall Norwich
Date: Sunday 17th October 2010 at 5:47 PM
Hello there,
I have just spent hours reading your fabulous site and posts, and wonder if you could kindly help me at all please? My father, Gilbert Ernest Theobald (War record no 5834911) was in the 2nd Battallion of the Suffolk Regiment, and I have recently discovered letters that he wrote from "India Command". It had always been my understanding he was a "Chindit" - who I understood fought behind enemy lines in Burma. But this doesnt tie up with the letters! Would you be able to help me shed any light on exactly where my father served and when? His date of birth was 30.12.1921 and he died in November 1995, but in all the years of my growing up he would never talk of his war time experiences. I know he spent some time in hospital in a place called Trimulgherry Deccan where he suffered from malaria and jaundice.
I believe you can obtain copies of a soldier's actual war record and wondered if this would be able to help me?
Many thanks in advance for your kind assistance.
Lorraine Zima (nee Theobald)
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 17th October 2010 at 9:03 PM

Dear Lorraine,
I am pleased you have found the website interesting. The service record of Gilbert Ernest Theobald will be held by the UK Ministry of Defence so you would need to apply for it as that is the starting point for primary evidence of his service. .
The 2nd Battalion Suffolk Regiment did serve in Burma with British and Allied Land Forces, South East Asia. Their war diaries are held at the National Archives at Kew in Catalogue series WO 172 and span the years 1939 to 1945 in six sub-series references: WO 172/312 (1939); WO 172/889 (1942); WO 172/2549 (1943); WO 172/4922 (1944) and WO 172/7667 (1945). By February 1946 they were at Lahore.
The order of battle of the two Chindit expeditions of 1943 and 1944 can be seen at:
http://www.chindits.info/Units/Units.html

It does not include the Suffolk Regiment, however that does not preclude an individual being attached to another unit, therefore it will be necessary to see Gilbert's service record.

The MoD will release certain amounts of information depending on whether you are next of kin or not. You can apply using the forms for next of kin, or with permission of next of kin, or as a general enquirer. See:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
You may need proof of death; date of birth; next of kin's permission unless you are the direct next of kin; a cheque and completed forms Part 1 and 2. The next of kin form (Part 1) is for completion by the next of kin of deceased service personnel (or enquirers with the consent of next of kin). Look for "Service records publications" under "Related pages" and follow the instructions. The Part 2 form is entitled: "Request forms for service personnel Army" found under "Related Pages". A cheque for GBP 30 should be made payable to "The MoD Accounting Officer" and sent to Army Personnel Centre Secretariat, Disclosures 2, Mail Point 515, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX Scotland with all the paperwork.
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Leah Kausman
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 2:09 AM

How do I contact Alan Greveson? I am researching ancestry and may have a relative who died in WW1.
He served in the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-1920.
Reply from: Lorraine
Date: Wednesday 27th October 2010 at 8:39 PM

Dear Alan
Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction! I have gotten the forms from MOD and sent them off with required details.

Just looking forward now to getting Dad's complete war record and filling in some of the gaps.

With many thanks and best regards
Lorraine


Posted by: Lorraine Wolfe {Email left}
Location: Wakefield
Date: Sunday 17th October 2010 at 1:16 PM
I am trying to find any information on John Thomas Luby private 13896 7th battalion koyli he was killed in france on 09/11/1915 we know where his grave is which my father has recently visited but would really like a photograph of him if anyone could help us with this
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 17th October 2010 at 8:21 PM

Dear Lorraine,
No service record has survived for John Thomas Luby of the KOYLI so it is not possible to give a detailed account of his time in the war. "Soldiers Died in the Great War" (HMSO 1921) recorded that he was born in Holbeck, Leeds and was killed in action while with the 7th Battalion KOYLI. The CWGC Debt of Honour also recorded that he was with the 7th Battalion KOYLI. These records showed the battalion he was with when he died. It is likely, but not certain, he served with the same battalion throughout.
The 7th Battalion KOYLI was a "war service" battalion raised at Pontefract on 12th September 1914 as part of Kitchener's Second New Army. The new battalion trained at Woking and moved to Witley, near Aldershot, in February 1915. It May 1915 it moved to Salisbury Plain and trained with the 61st Infantry Brigade in the 20th Division. The Division was inspected by King George V at Knighton Down on 24 June 1915, by which time it was ready for war. It was also visited by Lord Kitchener.
A Medal Rolls Index Card for John T Luby showed he entered France on 22nd July 1915, a date which matches that of the 7th Battalion KOYLI. The Battalion landed at Boulogne and marched to Steenwerck by the 29th when they took part in trench familiarisation near Armentieres attached to the 80th Infantry Brigade. The battalion suffered its first casualties on August 6th 1915 and after two weeks' training in trench routine it took over its own line of trenches in the Laventie sector, three miles north of Neuve Chapelle. The battalion played a minor role in the Battle of Loos in September and then settled into trench routine at Fleurbaix. John Luby was killed on 9th November 1915 which in general was a "quiet" period in this area and it is possible he was a casualty of the daily exchange of shelling and rifle fire.
After the War his family subscribed to "The National Roll of the Great War" and the entry for J.T. Luby of the KOYLI read: "Volunteering in September 1914 he was soon drafted to France and took part in much severe fighting in various sectors. He gave his life for King and Country on November 9th 1915 and was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, The General Service [British War] and Victory medals. "A valiant soldier with undaunted heart he breasted life's last hill." 16 Dudley Street, Holbeck, Leeds." ("National Roll of the Great War" Vol VIII, Page 206).

The most likely source for published photographs would be the local newspapers of the time which may have reported his death. They will be available at the Leeds local studies library. See:
http://www.culture24.org.uk/am11119
Kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Lorraine Wolfe
Date: Monday 18th October 2010 at 8:52 AM

Dear Alan,Thank you very much for your quick reply.I will look at the Leeds local studies library .Thank you.Lorraine


The forum has 164 pages containing 2285 messages
-10   Prev Page   124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132   Next Page   10+

Don't forget to BOOKMARK this page to your FAVORITES.