The World War Forum

I have just discovered my grandfathers soldiers pay book and it indicates that he served as a driver in 'C' battery 120th BGDE Ammunition column RFA during the 1st world war.
Could any one provide any information on which fronts he may have severed.
He enlisted on the 4/5/1915 aged 19 yrs 7 months.

Thanks
Peter Tomlinson

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 14th March 2010 at 9:50 PM
Dear Peter,
The 120th Brigade Royal Field Artillery served with the 38th (Welsh) Division from April 1915 and crossed to France with the Division at the end of 1915. The Division fought at the Battle of Albert in the opening phase of the Battle of the Somme in July 1916. The 120th Brigade RFA appears to have been supporting 114th Infantry Brigade at Mametz Wood. However, in August 1916 the 120th Brigade RFA (also indicated by Roman numerals as CXX Brigade) was broken up. The men generally stayed in the same division. The authoritative website, "The Long, Long Trail" says: "In 1914 a Division had 3 Field Brigades and 1 Howitzer Brigade. The Howitzer Brigades at Divisional level were broken up during May 1916, and the sections allocated to join the field gun Brigades, usually of the same Division. Brigade Ammunition Columns disappeared in May 1916, when they were reorganised into Divisional Ammunition Columns." See
http://www.1914-1918.net/whatartbrig.htm
The four Brigade Ammunition Columns amalgamated to become the Divisional Ammunition Column in May 1916. This means he might have become part of the 38th Divisional Ammunition Column in 1916. The only way to be certain is to see if his service record has survived. These are searchable on the Ancestry website (charges apply) or at the National Archives at Kew. However, it seems certain he was with 38th Infantry Division which remained in France and Flanders throughout the war.
Kind regards,
Alan

I believe my Grandfather, Louis Harley, was a 2nd Lieutenant in WW1. He was born (1889) & lived in Broughty Ferry, Scotland. I have heard the Black Watch mentioned by my Father but other than this, I have no other service details like his regiment, medals, etc.
My Grandfather's war diaries mention he left Southampton on 19/11/1915 for Le Havre. He saw action in places like La Gorgue, Aubers, Festubert, Vermelles, Bethune, etc. He returned to England for training, on 17/11/1915. He again left for France on 3/9/1916. An entry on 2/9, mentions the number 598986 but this is a mystery to us. He reported to the 32nd Div base @ Etables Base Camp and was in France until 2/11/1916, when he sailed from Le Havre on the hospital ship, Carisbrook Castle (?) as he had been in various hospitals for 6 weeks. These included the 39th Hospital, the Officers' Hospital & No 2 Hospital.
The diaries mention horse boxes but that he also had to dig trenches so I am unsure as to whether he was Infantry or Cavalry but I believe it was Cavalry.
I am unsure as to when he left the service but it may have been for medical reasons.
I also do not know if his brothers, Norman & Raymond, were in the War.
Louis Harley passed away in Sri Lanka in 1962.
Please advise me as to where I take all this information so as to get his service records & anything else for that part of his life.
With much gratitude for any help given,
Yours, Veronica.

Ive being trying to track my grandfathers military medal card for his ww1 asc service in east africa .Come up with 2 cards with right name/corps basically Wilfred Davis regt no T/564531 and Wifred O Davis regt no DM1 195326 (from scribble might be DM2 or DMI ).Now i understand from other research only mechanised british asc units were sent to east africa so i am guessing the DM bit stands for driver mechanic ,which would be my grandfather .As other regimental number with T indicates horse transport unit i think i read somewhere .Can anybody confirm i am correct.Thanks

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 10th March 2010 at 12:55 PM
Dear Eddy,
I think you are correct. The Medal Rolls Index card for Wilfred O. Davis showed him with the rank of Pte (Private) with the regimental number DM2/195326. The prefix as you say indicated Mechanical Transport (sometimes erroneously called Mechanised Transport) as opposed to Horse or Steam (they had traction engines too). D usually referred to driver, which was also a description of rank for many ASC men. The reason it is not used here instead of Private is probably because DM2 was a prefix for a learner (Mechanical Transport, Learner). A soldier would not have stayed a learner for long, but the index card showed the rank held on entering the theatre of war. The card is of a post-1915 style, as it showed no qualification for the 1914-15 Star for service abroad before December 31st 1915. So Wilfred Davis went abroad after January 1, 1916. The index card does not identify Wilfred O Davis further, but in the two censuses before WW1 there was only one Wilfred O Davis. This was Wilfred Owen Davis born at Willesden in summer 1898 (GRO births Q3 1898 Hendon vol 3a page 211) who was the son of Percy and Emily Davis. In 1901 Percy was a superintendant mechanical engineer (RG13/714 page 109 folio 37) and ten years later he was an engineer instructor for a correspondence course, while Wilfred was a 12 year old scholar. The family was living at Catford, SE London. This means that when the war started this Wilfred would have been 16. He would have reached the age for conscription on his 18th birthday in 1916. Technically he should not have served overseas until his 19th birthday, although this restriction was often ignored.
There is an interesting map of the East African Campaign at
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/World_War_I_in_East_Africa.jpg
and a useful timeline at
http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ww1/index.htm
Kind regards,
Alan

Hello,

I am trying to find out more about my Grandfather's role in WW1. He was in the 2/4th KOYLIs and 62nd Battalion. I would like to know where they were during the war and to be able to trace it on a map. My father has few details as his father, understandably, did not want to talk about it after the war. I understand that the military records have been lost in a fire - so can anybody help?

Regards,

Kim

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 9th March 2010 at 11:16 AM
Dear Kim,
The 2nd/4th Battalion King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry was raised at Wakefield on September 20th 1914. The original 4th Battalion of the Territorial Force was created in 1908 from the 1st Volunteer Battalion KOYLI (South Yorkshire Regiment). When the Territorials were embodied (mobilised) for war service, second line units were created for Home Defence from the influx of volunteers: hence the fractional numbering 2/4th. In March 1915 they moved to a camp set up in the grounds of Bulwell Park, North of Nottingham where they became part of the 187th Infantry Brigade in the 62nd Infantry Division. In April 1915 they moved to a hutted camp at Strensall North-east of York, and then to Beverley in May 1915. In November 1915 they were at Gateshead. In January 1916 they moved to Larkhill on Salisbury Plain. In June 1916 they moved to Flixton Park near Bungay, which is inland from Lowestoft, Suffolk. The Division was inspected by King George V on 26 July 1916. In October 1916 they moved to Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and while there were warned they would soon go to France.
During this long period at Home the second line units of the Division provided drafts for the first line units already in France with the 49th Division. Without a service record for your grandfather it can only be assumed that he stayed with the same battalion throughout his service. Malcolm K. Johnson, writing "Saturday Soldiers" (2004) says of the 2nd/4th KOYLI: "Towards the end of the year [1915] the numbers in the reserve battalions were drastically reduced as men were transferred to the first line battalions in France" (page 64).
The 2nd/4th battalion KOYLI went to France, entraining at Wellingborough on January 13th for Southampton and crossing on the SS "Mona Queen" to Havre where they disembarked on the 15th and spent that night in a rest camp at Havre. Next morning they went by train to Frevant, North of Doullens before marching to billets in the villages of Authie and St Leger where they were introduced to trench routine in the harsh winter weather. At 6 am on February 25th 1917 the 2/4 Bn KOYLI advanced on the village of Puissieux before resting at Achiet-le-Petit. The next engagement was an attack on the Hindenburg Line at the village of Bullecourt on May 2nd 1917. They remained in that sector's trenches until June when they moved out of the line for training at Bihucourt. At the end of June they took over the line between Noreuil and Lagnicourt. They continued in the front line in the area of Vraucourt in August and then started night-training at Ytres for an attack being planned with tanks in support at Cambrai. On November 14th they moved off in secrecy at Barastre and got into line at Havrincourt on the 17th. The fighting at Cambrai lasted from 20th to 30th November 1917 with the 2/4th Bn KOYLI fighting at Bourlon village. On November 28th the battalion marched to a tented camp at Lebucquiere where they came under enemy shelling attacks until December 4th 1917. They spent the remainder of the month in the area West of Arras and on January 6th 1918 moved into the front line at Gavrelle to the North-east of Arras where they remained until March 22nd 1918. They were then ordered to take-up positions at Bucquoy near La Louviere Farm to defend the area between Puisieux and Hebuterne. They were attacked by the enemy and staged two counter-attacks despite running out of grenades. The fighting continued at Rossignal Wood until March 29th. The Battalion went to Authie where on April 11th 1918 it received reinforcements, half of them under the minimum age of 19. The Battalion had been badly mauled but the enemy's Spring Offensive had failed. Sporadic fighting at Bucquoy continued in April and May. The enemy then launched an attack in the Champagne region and reached as far West as the Marne and the 62 Division was one of four rushed South to help the French GHQ in July. The Battalion received sudden orders to move and on the 14th July they marched to the station at Doullens and were taken by train in a large detour round Paris, Melun and Troyes to Sommesous. From there they were taken by motor bus to Aulnay-sur-Marne and Aigny. They were to attack on the 20th July in a direction North-east of Bois de Reims. A week later they had pushed the enemy back to Bligny. A stage had been reached (though they didn't know it) which was later seen as the turning point of the war towards Allied victory. The Battalion moved back from the front and camped at Henu until August 19th when they moved forward again, travelling for three days by bus to Courcelles. They then attacked to the East of Mory on August 25th. On the 27th they attacked Vraucourt. The next attack in the advance was on the Drocourt-Queant line on September 2nd. On September 11th they were involved in the second battle for Havrincourt. After a period of rest at Behagnes the Battalion moved to Fremicourt on the road between Bapaume and Cambrai where they were to break the Hindenburg Line on September 27th and 28th. The next day they attacked on the St Quentin Canal at Marcoing to capture Masnieres. At the end of the month the Battalion got a much-needed rest at Havrincourt where it re-fitted and recuperated. On October 9th they moved East to Masnieres and then continued to move round Cambrai, through Estourmel and Bevillers until they reached Quievy on October 20th. On November 2nd they moved to Ruesnes and on November the 5th they were formed up for an attack at Orsinval on the railway line running from Valenciennes. After taking Orsinval they attacked the village of Frasnoy and reached the edge of the Forest of Mormal on November 6th. On November 8th they had to cross the Sambre River under fire from Maubeuge. On the 9th they attacked Louvroil and entered Maubeuge itself. On the 10th they rested at Sous-le-Bois where they were on November 11th 1918.
As mentioned earlier, any postings between battalions would be recorded in a soldier's service record. Many records did survive the fire at the War Office repository in Arnside Street in 1940 and those that survived are known as the "Burnt Documents". They can be searched on the Ancestry website. Some libraries provide free access to Ancestry. The surviving records can also be searched in person on microfilm at the National Archives.
Kind regards,
Alan

Reference: Johnson, Malcolm K., "Saturday Soldiers. The Terrirorial Battalions of the KOYLI 1908-1919" Doncaster Museum Service, 2004. ISBN 0-903524-30-9

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Reply from: Kim
Date: Thursday 11th March 2010 at 6:58 PM
Thankyou, Alan, for such a detailed reply - my Dad will be thrilled! Thankyou also for your pointers as to where to look next. I will have a look on the Ancestry site next. I will also look for a copy of the book.
Thanks again,
Kim

Below is an extract following a conversation with an Aunt whose father left home c1955 and wasn't seen again.
It refers to Andrew Frederick Rankin b1899 in Liverpool.

1.He joined the army in WW1 when he was too young to enlist -
effectively he 'ran away' to join up. She said he was a very good cook
and so it is possible he was a chef in WW1 (which is what my Dad
always told me). (S has suggested that we can't find him in the
army records because we are looking for the wrong date of birth - if
he lied about his age to enlist). He was badly injured in the war and
lost a lung. He also sustained some sort of head injury and ever
afterwards suffered from crippling headaches and blackouts. He would
pass out.

2. Annie Elizabeth Sanders and AFR met when she was working at a soldier's
convalescent home / hospital and he was a patient still recovering
from his injuries. (So - as they married in Aberdovey in 1924, we can look
first for a nursing home in that area?)

On the birth certificates of two of their children in 1925 and 1934 his occupation was stated as Army disabled Pensioner.

The online Army service and pension records have not revealed any information about him.
Our Grandmother AES was the daughter of a family who originated in the Aberystwyth area, so it is possible she had returned there and was working in a local home or hospital.
Is it possible that there are any records of such a place where we could find more information?

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 9th March 2010 at 1:14 PM
Dear Hollyblue,
In case you think I've missed this post: I'm working on this now.
Kind regards,
Alan

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 9th March 2010 at 8:05 PM
Dear Hollyblue,
This is a difficult problem to solve. Oral evidence requires caution because it can be altered in the re-telling and because it can contain other people's assumptions. However, sometimes it is the only evidence from which to start searching. Andrew Frederick Rankin was born in 1899 (probably GRO births, Q1 West Derby, Lancashire, 1900 vol 8b page 424). He would have been 15 at the outbreak of WW1 and could only have volunteered before January 1916 when conscription was introduced. So he would have joined between August 1914 and December 1915. He would have trained as a soldier. In WW1 the Army did not have a Catering Corps. Soldiers who could cook were an asset and might become regimental cooks within their own unit but the skill would not necessarily place him in a specific regiment. Butchers and bakers were employed in the supply companies of the Army Service Corps. "Running away" to join the army could be a judgemental description, implying he had done something wrong or his joining-up did not meet with parental approval. Like quarter-of-a-million other under-age soldiers, he might have seen it as a gallant act with a spirit of adventure. However, if he enlisted under an assumed age, he could have enlisted under an assumed name, in which case tracing him would be very difficult. As he was badly injured it seems certain he served abroad and should have been awarded at least two campaign medals (War and Victory) if he served more than 28 days overseas. He would also have been awarded the Silver War Badge "For King and Empire Services Rendered". Therefore he should have a Medal Rolls Index card. Twenty-two index cards exist in the name Andrew Rankin. By cross-referencing these with surviving service records and death records it is possible to eliminate many. Seven have different middle initials; other were either too old or were married or died or served in pre-war regular army regiments. Of three remaining index cards one was for 46401 Andrew Rankin Highland Light Infantry; one for 45302 Andrew Rankin Royal Engineers who was discharged (probably through injury) and one for 59311 Andrew Rankin West Yorkshire Regiment who was convicted for larceny and served three months without hard labour (October 25th 1921) who had been awarded a Silver War Badge. He had enlisted on 18.9.1917 and discharged in August 1919 "no longer physically fit for service".
So, none of the surviving Army records appears to identify him directly. As the surviving service records usually identify a man's next of kin, address and place of birth an alteration in year of birth is not necessarily going to affect the search.
Andrew Rankin's military record cannot be identified from the existing information without corroborative evidence from elsewhere.
The next piece of oral evidence was that Annie Elizabeth Sanders and Arthur met when she was working at a soldiers' convalescent home. This suggests a long convalescence for Andrew if they were not married until 1924. He may have been resident in an ex-soldiers' home. Military Hospitals were organised by Military District and the authoritative website, "The Long, Long Trail" lists four hospitals in Wales. These were the 3rd Western General Hospital in Cardiff; the Welsh Metropolitan War Hospital which took over the Cardiff City Asylum at Whitchurch, Glam.; the Prince of Wales Hospital for Limbless Soldiers and Sailors, Cardiff and a Special Neurological Hospital for officers opened at Nannau, Gwynedd in 1918. Some military hospitals were closed or handed-back to the civil authorities in the early 1920s. Andrew would have been treated initially in a general hospital in France before being sent to England where he would most probably have been treated at a hospital in Kent or London.
Annie Sanders might have married in her home parish. However, Andrew could have bought a special license so they could marry anywhere. The marriage certificate should show whether the wedding was by banns or marriage and which parish they lived in. If Annie were a nurse, there should be some record of her. I haven't found one, but the National Archives does have a Medal Rolls Index Card for an Annie Sanders in the Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps in WW1 (Formerly the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps). It doesn't identify her further, but the card indicates she was injured as it is marked "List WAAC X300 which implies a Silver War Badge List. Her cause of discharge is marked MU which is probably Medically Unfit for further service. She enlisted on 15.11.17 and was discharged 17.4.19. Her rank was "Worker" equivalent of private and her number was 15871. No service record for her appears to have survived. The WAACs arrived in France on 31 March 1917, under their first commander Assistant Controller Helen Gwynne Vaughan.
There were numerous nursing services in WW1.
An Andrew F. Rankin aged 61 died at Meriden Warwickshire in 1959 (GRO Deaths Q4 1959 Meriden vol 9c page 801).
As Andrew described himself as a disabled army pensioner there may be a record in the National Archives Catalogue pension case files in PIN 26. Only a 2% sample of these records survive. These are not the same as soldiers' pension records on Ancestry.
For a list of the nursing organisations see:
http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/index.html
For the WAAC see
http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/exhibitions/waac/index.shtml
For search help see
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=142&j=1
and for the Annie Sanders record card see
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/waac.asp
For convalescent or soldiers' homes in the 1920s you need a local directory from that time. Local studies libraries may hold them. The nearest libraries appear to be Tywyn Library, Neptune Road, Tywyn, LL36 9HA (01654 710104‎) or Machynlleth Library, Maengwyn Street, Machynlleth Powys SY20 8DY (01654 702322). The Gwynedd Archives are at: Meirionnydd Record Office, Ffordd y Bala, Dolgellau, Gwynedd, LL40 2YF (01341 424682). The archives may hold Poor Law records which often list "out-payments" to people claiming benefit in the 1920s.
Local newspapers in Liverpool may have entries of interest during WW1 as might local papers for the relevant areas in 1955 and when he died.
Kind regards,
Alan

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Reply from: Hollyblue
Date: Thursday 11th March 2010 at 11:10 AM
Dear Alan

Thank you ever so much for all your work, it's brilliant.
Our grandfather is indeed the one born in West Derby. We have already purchased the death certificate for the AFR in Meriden but it isn't the one.

However, we have found a Rankin 2nd Lieut A F at WO374/56208. We would never have thought he could be an officer, given his upbringing in the back street court slums of Liverpool, but we can live in hope until we get the record from the National Archives. It would be a co-incidence though, since the hospital you mentioned at Nannau was for officers with neurological problems, and this was only 25 miles away from Aberdovey.

Again many thanks for your help, we still have some of the leads to follow up, and we will be delighted to make a donation to the British Legion.

Regards

Can someone help please? My father served in WW1 as a Driver with the ASC (regimental no,. T4/262290.

I know he served in Egypt - but never mentioned anywhere else. I have got a copy of his MIC but all searches for his other records come to bnothing - obviously destroyed. I have managed to acquire a copy of the ASC 1902-1918 by Michael Young, and brilliant as it is, I am completely at a loss as to how to interpret the different companies, etc.,

What I need is somebody to tell me where abouts my father would have been. I can then track down information as to what it might have been like for him,

Many thanks in anticipation,

Beth Jones

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 8th March 2010 at 6:07 PM
Dear Beth,
Without a surviving service record for your father it will not be possible to say which unit of the Army Service Corps he served with. However, there some clues which help suggest a possible course of events. The MIC that you have is for Herbert V Week, a driver with the ASC No T4/262290. The card indicates he did not serve abroad until or after 1916, as there is no qualification for a 1915 Star. The "T" stood for Horsed Transport (as opposed to M for Mechanical Transport). The 4 indicated the 4th New Army. There happened to be two 4th New Armies.
Sometimes it is possible to suggest units based on the regimental number. Soldiers who died are often better recorded than those who survived and it is occasionally possible to identify a batch of numbers with soldiers who died and hence discover which unit they were with. I have tried this method with 50 regimental numbers in sequence with Herbert's number in T4 ASC. Only 15 names emerged. None of them died and only one has a surviving service record – and he never went abroad. A wider search for Herbert V. Weeks showed him as Herbert Victor Weeks born 21 November 1899 (GRO births King's Norton Jan 1900 vol 6c page 418) who was the son of Arthur and Kezia Weeks, later of 179 Edward Road, Balsall Heath, King's Norton. During the survey for the National Registration Act in August 1915, Herbert would have completed a form declaring on which day he would attain his 18th birthday: November 21 1917. Officially, this was the day he could be conscripted following the 1916 Military Service Act. Herbert is not listed in the Birmingham absent voters' list for the 1918 election, as he was not then 21. He was not supposed to serve abroad until his 19th birthday, though this was often overlooked. Unless he joined under age, he would have been called-up in November 1917 to undergo basic training. He was most likely to have gone initially to the recruiting office in Sussex Street, Birmingham for a medical before being posted to a training company of the ASC. An ASC soldier with the number T4/262279 was allotted that number by the 663 Company ASC at Park Royal in London. The T4 pre-fix indicated 4th New Army, the first of which had been raised between September 1914 and April 1915. The units were re-allocated and a fifth New Army took the number 4, after April 1915 with "reserve" or training units being added late in 1915 and 1916. The 663 Company ASC was created in April 1916 and was a Reserve company for training in the UK. Once trained, men were allocated to the Transport Companies whenever and wherever drafts were needed. The man's service record would have shown to which company he was posted. We do not have that information. The Horsed Transport Companies were allocated to Divisions with one company to each brigade. There were five companies to a Division, known as the Divisional Train. Fourteen Divisions served in Palestine. A driver was a private soldier who "drove" the horse transport, which was generally used for carrying forward all stores from the Brigade refilling-point to the front-line. As they were at the front the men were classed as combatants. (The infantry, though, believed they took all the strawberry jam).
Assuming six months' (or perhaps less) of training, the earliest Herbert would have gone abroad was April 1918 but he would not yet have been 19 – the official minimum age. However, he did qualify for the British War Medal having "rendered approved service overseas between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918". By co-incidence, General Allenby had to re-organise his Expeditionary Force in Egypt in April 1918. Herbert would have sailed from Southampton to Alexandria, a journey of 15 days. The main role of the Army in Egypt had been the defence of the Suez Canal but by Easter 1918 when Herbert may have arrived, General Allenby had already moved North and East having taken Jerusalem the previous December. In 1918 the fighting was in the Jordan Valley from February 19th to May 4th; the Battles of Megiddo, Sharon and Nablus 19th to 25th September; and the final offensive beyond the Jordan until the 26th October with Damascus captured on October 1st 1918. This last offensive involved the 54th, 75th, 60th, 53rd and 10th British Divisions as well as the Indian and Australian Divisions. The Armistice was signed on October 31st 1918.
Elsewhere, you have said that Herbert was armed with a pistol; escorted pilgrims to Mecca and was photographed floating in the Dead Sea. My observations on this evidence are that the Dead Sea was a contested supply route from the Ottoman Empire to Palestine, defended by 67 Squadron Royal Flying Corps. Therefore, sitting in the sea was probably a post-Armistice event. The Dead Sea is about 1500 kilometres from Mecca. However, the main route South was the Hejaz (Hijaz) railway from Damascus to Medina and even before WW1 it was necessary to protect pilgrims. The railway was the "Lawrence of Arabia" railway. Its route South went from Damascus to Dar'a, Amman (East of Jerusalem and the Dead Sea) East of Aqaba, Tabuk and South to Medina (Al Madinah). In the war the railway was used by the Ottoman Empire to supply the Turkish Garrison at Medina and their Fourth Army. Carrying a pistol implies policing rather than combat. The policing role would have followed on from the successful capture of cities. From 1917 Palestine came under British rule as an Occupied Enemy Territory Administration. The British withdrew from Transjordan in December 1919 and the French occupied Damascus after April 1920 while British forces withdrew from the Syrian interior. In August 1920 Transjordan (through which part of the Hejaz railway ran) was placed under a British mandate. This means Herbert may have served with the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, Palestine and Egypt, 1918-1919/20. As well as the British War Medal for service before November 1918 Herbert qualified for the Allied Victory Medal for which eligibility included service in Hedjaz (Hejaz) up to midnight January 13th 1919.
(It had been 1916 when Lawrence was sent to meet the Amir Feisal whose tribesmen had been attempting to besiege Medina. Feisal was the son of Sherif Hussein, ruler of the Hejaz. After October 1st 1918 Feisal entered Damascus in triumph and Lawrence took charge of civil and military order for several weeks.)
Herbert's route home would have been via Egypt and Alexandria where some Divisions demobilised as late as May 31st 1920. If he was still serving in 1920 (which is plausible) his service record may have survived with the Ministry of Defence's post-1920 documents. See how to request a search at:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
It has to be stressed that Herbert could have been posted to any ASC Company in Egypt. However, he certainly reached the Dead Sea (even if he were on leave). Of the five British Divisions in that part of
Palestine in late 1918 three were essentially Territorial Force divisions; one Irish and the 60th Division was a London Division originally formed from second line (reserve) units and only authorised for overseas service by the Military Service Act of 1916. A link has started to develop (circumstantially) between the London-based reserve Company of the ASC and the London-based Division of reserve units (60th Division) both authorised to provide overseas service after compulsory service was introduced in 1916. It is just possible that Herbert served with the 60th Division in which case he could have been with 60th Divisional Train ASC which consisted of Nos. 517, 518, 519 and 520 Companies ASC. However, there is no corroborative evidence.
I'm afraid this is a speculative rather than a definitive answer to your question. Only with a service record showing his unit and dates can you be certain. Any mistakes are entirely mine.
Late in 1918, the ASC was granted the title Royal in recognition of its war service.
Kind regards,
Alan

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Reply from: Beth Jones
Date: Tuesday 9th March 2010 at 12:28 PM
Dear Alan,

You time, patience and knowledge are appreciated more that words can say. What you say makes a lot of sense from my memories of my father. He was not forthcoming! As I say, he died when I was 14 but he took me to see "Lawrence of Arabia" when it first came out, and he was quite emotional at some parts. Said memories came flooding back to him.

I will certainly contact the Veterans to see if they have any information. I know he was badly injured (and thought to be dead on a cart load of dead), when attacked by the Turks. Its a pity that the "wrong" place was bombed and all that history destroyed.

I do have a copy from the library of that book "ASC 1902-1920", and have tried ploughing through it. I think you may need a degree in Military History to make sense of some of the appendices at the back, so many thanks for your help in that direction.

If I should find anything further, I will let you know.

Once more, many thanks for your time and effort.

Best wishes

Beth Jones

Hello, I have identified my grandmother's cousin on Ancestry as Charles Henry Perkins, fro Bury who was in the Lancashire Fusiliers from 10/09/1914 and The Machine Gun Corps /1/1917and rose to 2nd Liutenant. I have downloaded his medal cardand this confirms that he served in Egypt. He went to Ireland in 1919 and died there 14 September 1919.His name is on the memorial in Redvales Cemetery, Bury. I would dearly like to find out more about him andthe circumstances of his death. Can you help?

Margaret

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Sunday 7th March 2010 at 3:41 PM
Dear Margaret,
The Medal Rolls Index card you have for Charles Henry Perkins showed he served initially with the Lancashire Fusiliers and entered a theatre of war (3 – Egypt) on September 10th 1914 with the rank of Corporal. The card did not show which battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers he served with. However, the only battalions of the regiment which left for Egypt (on September 9th 1914) were the four Territorial Force battalions, numbered 5, 6, 7, and 8. (When recruiting boomed additional battalions were raised in Lancashire which were given the prefixes 2nd/5th and 3rd/5th Battalion ... and so on. The original battalions were often shown as 1st/5th or 1st/6th and so on). The Territorials existed before the war as battalions of part-time soldiers who lived at home and trained at weekends and on drill-nights. As Charles was a corporal at the start of the war, it seems likely he had served for a couple of years or more to have already attained that rank. The index card gave his mother's address as Peter Street, Bury. Before the war a Charles Henry Perkins, aged 17, lived with his widowed mother, Caroline, at George Street, Bury. Of the four Territorial Lancashire Fusilier battalions, only one was based in Bury: the 5th Battalion with a headquarters at Castle Armoury which was half a mile away from George Street. Territorial regulations stated soldiers could serve from age 17-and-a-half which meant that Charles could have joined in 1911, about the correct time scale to achieve Corporal by 1914.
The four T.F. battalions of the Lancashire Fusiliers together formed a "fighting force" (a brigade) and they all served together as the East Lancashire Brigade, later re-numbered as the 125th Brigade. Three brigades, with artillery and engineers, formed a Division. The 5th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers was embodied (mobilized) on August 5th 1914 at Bury and then men were asked to volunteer for Imperial Service as their Territorial terms of service were for home defence only. On August 20th the battalions went to tented camps at Turton near the Wayoh reservoir, Chesham and Holingworth Lake, Rochdale where they trained and formed-up as a brigade. The Brigade embarked at Southampton on September 9th 1914 and sailed for Alexandria in Egypt where it disembarked on September 25th. The 5th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers was based around Cairo where, after acclimatisation, the men were to defend the Suez Canal from being captured by the Turks who were gathered in Palestine. The Turks advanced across the Sinai desert and the Lancashire Fusiliers fought them off on February 3rd 1915, after which they remained in defence of the Canal until late April 1915. They were then ordered back to Alexandria where they were to sail to Gallipoli where the Allies were already under pressure. At some stage Charles Perkins was promoted to Sergeant in the Lancashire Fusiliers and it seems probable he may have been promoted while at Suez or Gallipoli. The Fusiliers left Egypt on at the beginning of May 1915 and sailed for Cape Helles at Gallipoli (arriving on the 5th May) where they were involved in attempts to get off the beaches and take the high ground at the village of Krithia until May 8th. The attacks lasted for three months with notable engagements on June 4th and the week after August 6th. (On May 26th 1915, the East Lancashire Brigade was numbered the 125th Brigade. The Division was numbered the 42nd Division). The Division was reduced to a third of its strength through casualties and sickness by August 1915 and it was withdrawn (along with all other units) from Gallipoli at the end of 1915. On December 28th 1915 they arrived on Mudros, and on January 15th 1916 they disembarked at Alexandria and moved to the Cairo area again. About this time, during WW1, the machine gunners of infantry battalions were being re-organised. It was decided to create the Machine Gun Corps which would provide specialist tactical use of the Vickers machine gun within the fighting Brigades. The machine gunners of infantry battalions were generally transferred to the new Machine Gun Corps. We may assume that Sergeant Charles Perkins was with a machine gun section in the Lancashire Fusiliers as he became a Company Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer Class II) in the Machine Gun Corps. His Medal Index card does not indicate when. However, the new Machine Gun companies formed from the infantry battalions generally served with the brigade in which they were created. That serving with the Lancashire Fusiliers was numbered the 125th Machine Gun Company and the 125th MG Company was formed on 4th March 1916 – in Egypt. There is no primary evidence, but the most likely scenario is that Charles would have been in Egypt in March 1916; transferred from the Fusiliers to the 125th MG Company and remained with the 125th (East Lancashire) Brigade. He had a new cap badge, a new regiment and he was a Company Sergeant Major. He continued to fight alongside the Fusiliers, but his orders came from Brigade and not Battalion. The 125th Brigade resumed their defence of the Suez Canal in the Spring of 1916 and in August they took their campaign into the Sinai desert, marching through shifting sand in severe heat to Romani where they engaged the Turks and pushed them back. The British Army then created a railway and water course through the desert to enable them to enter Palestine and the Lancashire brigade with its machine gun company provided an advanced guard during the work as far as El Arish. Early in 1917 the 125th Brigade was warned it was to be sent to France. They sailed from Alexandria to Marseilles where they landed on February 27th 1917. They were re-fitted for a life in the trenches and moved to Epehy, which was between Saint Quentin and Cambrai. They joined III Corps in the Fourth Army. They soon moved to North to Havrincourt, South of Cambrai where they stayed until July 1917. In August they moved to Albert, on the Somme.
His medal card showed Charles Henry Perkins was commissioned into the Machine Gun Corps on November 27th 1917. To have achieved this he would have spent four months at an Officer Cadet training school. It is not possible to say which one. It was probably in England. So he could have temporarily left France in August 1917. At this point we lose track of him. Once commissioned, he could have been posted to any Machine Gun Company. It is possible he remained within his own Division, which was normal. In February 1918, under a general re-organisation of the Army in France, the Machine Gunners were re-allocated as Machine Gun Battalions under Divisional Command and the 125th MG Company stayed with 42 Division and was re-numbered 42 Battalion Machine Gun Corps, but there is no evidence Charles returned to his original unit.
In 1918 the 42nd Division fought at the Battle of Bapaume; the First Battle of Arras; the Battle of the Ancre (all known as First Battle of the Somme 1918); the Battle of Albert; the Second Battle of Bapaume (Second Battle of the Somme 1918); the Canal du Nord and the pursuit to the Selle.
The Division ended the war in the Charleroi area in December where demobilisation for the men began. By March 1919 the Division was very much reduced. In Ireland in November 1918 Sinn Féin had won a landslide victory and formed its own parliament in Dublin. On 21 January 1919 a guerrilla war was sparked off by an ambush at Soloheadbeg by the Irish Volunteers (later called the Irish Republican Army). Martial Law was imposed the next day and Britain sent troops to Ireland to assist the Royal Irish Constabulary. Special Military Areas were established in South Tipperary and Limerick. A British soldier was killed at Fermoy on September 7th 1919 and the Sinn Fein parliament was declared an illegal assembly by the British on September 10th. During the next two years over 400 constables and nearly 150 soldiers were killed.
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission lists the death of C. H. Perkins on September 14th 1919. He had the rank of Lieutenant. This implies he was killed on active service. The CWGC lists his grave/memorial as EP 152 6681 at Bury Cemetery, Redvales. It is not clear if this is a grave or a memorial. You could check with The Bereavement Service, Bury Cemetery Office, St Peter's Road, Bury BL9 9RL. Tel: 0161 253 6510. I have been unable to find a registration of his death in English or Army Officer indexes. If his death was registered in Ireland you can order a certificate from the General Register Office in Ireland. See:
http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm
(He would not have had a PPSN -Personal Public Service Number). It is possible local newspapers at Bury may have reported his death or carried a death notice. See:
http://www.bury.gov.uk/LeisureAndCulture/LocalAndHistoricalHeritage/HistoricalRecords/default.asp
As Charles was an officer his service record may have survived on microfilm at The National Archives. For advice see:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/officerbritisharmyafter1913.htm?WT.lp=rg-3105
The archives of what is now the Irish Defence Force cover the period in question. However they are closed until May 2010. See
http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/arch.htm
The war Diary of 1/5th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers in Gallipoli is held at the National Archives in series WO 95/4315 42 Division.
Kind regards,
Alan

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Reply from: Margaret
Date: Sunday 7th March 2010 at 7:00 PM
Dear Alan,

I am most grateful to you for the wonderful assistance you have given me in finding out about my relative Charles Perkins. The Bury branch of my grandmother's family died out some time ago (Caroline Perkins was her mother's sister). I was fortunate enough as a child in the 1950's to have a grandmother who related her experiences to me and she told me many times about her cousin in Bury who was killed in Ireland after WW1. She possessed a string of amber beads which he brought as a gift for her from Egypt, she is shown wearing them on her wedding day in 1920, I inherited the beads but they were stolen from my house in 1988. It has taken me several years to find out the name of this soldier, and to receive so much detail from you today is overwhelming, but I shall use the links you have given me. I admire all you work,

Once again thank you,

Regards

Margaret Burrows

Dear Alan Greveson
I would be delighted if I can fill in more details of my father's war service in WW1. Trying to locate his army service and where he was injured and his subsequent locations in the R.E. has eluded me. Richard Henry Brimson volunteered from a reserved electrical position into the DCLI, at Birmingham 22 Dec1915. No. 24043. Travelled to Bodmin trained at Wareham posted to 7th DCLI, at Ypres around April 1916. Was injured 14Jun1916. Returned via 3rd CCCS, at Remy Farm, stretcher case to Britain. Where was he treated in Britain? Returned to Le Havre, France DCLI 22Dec16, then again I have nothing, until May1917 he is in the Royal Engineers. Sapper/Permanent Linesman No. 252788, "L" Signal Batt attached to 7 Rly Teleg Coy .Then again nothing, except a hand drawn sketch of Railway Telegraphic Lines, based on Romescamps/ Blargies, which were railway 'regulating' stations. They were NW Beauvais near Aumale, France. Romescamps, is again a sleepy village. He was posted for demob to RE Chatham, I have his Army STATEMENT AS TO DISABLITY FORM, (he did not claim any disability), it was signed by a JH Leggard or Steggard, at Gouys/Somme, France 17Aug19. I have also been unable to locate 'Gouys'. I have generally found it extremely difficult to obtain detail information regarding the British servicemen involved with telegraphs, early telephone and railway operations. They were such a small unit little seems to have been recorded; your undoubted advice where to search in this complex area would also be appreciated. Your research work is incredible, I am sure it will make mine very minor. Thank you.
Harry

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 5th March 2010 at 6:53 PM
Dear Harry,
Your father volunteered for the Army in November 1916 under the Derby Scheme (pronounced "Durby" by the soldiers). In August 1916 every local council undertook a census of all men and women aged 15 to 65 to ascertain what skills they had, how they were employed and their ages. This was the result of the National Registration Act which anticipated the possibility of conscription but also aimed to allocate people to essential war work. The details were entered on a pink form and the forms of those skilled in war industries were marked with a black star. These then became known as "starred" occupations. Richard Henry Brimson was described before the war as a "power motor fitter" living at Sutherland Street, Aston, Birmingham. When he enlisted he was a 20 year old electrical engineer. (He could have been making tube trains at the Metropolitan Amalgamated Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. which was near his home). By mid-1915, 23.7 per cent of electrical engineers had enlisted in the Army ("Kitchener's Army" Peter Simkins, 1988, page 111). Richard Brimson guessed that his job would be "starred" when Conscription was eventually introduced in January 1916. In an attempt to boost recruitment Lord Derby encouraged men to "volunteer now and serve later" with a deadline of November 30th 1915. Richard's service record showed an Attestation paper which was dated 22 November 1915 at Birmingham where he was initially allocated to the 17th Reserve Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment at Sutton Coldfield. Once attested he would have been sent home again to await call-up. He was called-up on December 4th 1915 at Birmingham and re-allocated to the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry whose depot was at Victoria Barracks, Bodmin. He arrived there on the 6th December 1915 and was then posted on 9th/10th December to the 9th Battalion DCLI which was a training battalion based at Wareham in Dorset. He trained with them, learning their impeccable and unique drill, until April 1916 when he was destined for the 7th Battalion, serving in France. He entered France five days after Easter Sunday on April 28th 1916 and went to No. 20 Infantry Base Depot (location not known). The depot regime was to toughen men for the front as well as allocating them to battalions that needed replacements. Richard was not sent to the 7 DCLI until May 21st. He would have travelled by train to Poperinghe, a major railhead, before joining his battalion to the South-east of Ypres near Zillebeke in Belgium where the 7th Bn was with the 61st Infantry Brigade in the 20th (Light) Division. The Division was serving with three Canadian Divisions in the Second Army (Plumer) in XIV Corps (the Earl of Cavan). It was the Canadians who would save his life. The 7th DCLI had been in France since July 1915, so Richard was part of a draft of reinforcements. His new mates were Kitchener's Army men and had diverse backgrounds. R.F.E. Evans wrote of his fellow recruits when he joined the 7th DCLI: "Many of the roughest and toughest recruits formed the nucleus of the Seventh Battalion... though my own draft happened to include a professional burglar, we were a mild enough lot; indeed one of us was a somewhat elderly butler with flat feet who must have lied desperately about his age. A Cockney barrow boy earnestly enquired of a young waiter from the Royal Automobile Club: 'Does gents eat whelks?'" (quoted by Simkins; ibid. page 207). Just two weeks after he joined the 7th DCLI the battalion was engaged in the battle of Mount Sorrel on June 2nd – 13th. The battle took place between Hill 60 at Zwarteleen and Hooge. The Eastern edge of Armagh Wood and Sanctuary Wood lay on the high ground of Mount Sorrel. See
http://www.1914-1918.net/bat14.htm#sorrel
Richard was wounded the day after the battle ended. You have the date 14 June; his service record showed 15 June. He had been hit in the back by shrapnel. He was sent to No. 62 Field Ambulance. The Field Ambulance was the most forward of the medical aid units and the first place of documentation. From there he went further back to No. 10 Casualty Clearing Station at Remy Siding on June 15th. The CCS could cater for 200 casualties: 50 in beds and 150 on stretchers. The following day Richard was sent to No 13 General Hospital which was at Boulogne. Two days later he was transferred to the hospital ship "St Dennis" and returned to England on the 18th. The St Dennis was a former Harwich-Hook channel ferry of the Great Eastern Railway. These entries on his record were signed off by a Captain for the New Army Infantry records at the 3rd Echelon (which had an HQ at Rouen). On June 18th he was "posted to D" which stood for Depot. This meant as a casualty in the UK he was administered from Bodmin again. He spent 60 days from June 18th to August 17th at the "QCMH Beachboro". This was the Queen's Canadian Military Hospital at Beachborough Park four miles from Folkestone, a country estate owned by the MP Sir Arthur Markham. New wards were erected in the grounds and the chief surgeon was Lt Col Donald Amour with chief physician Lt Col Sir William Osler. The hospital had 130 beds and was run by the Canadian War Contingents Association ("British Medical Journal", Brian Lewis, 1976; 2: pp 1545-1548). On August 17th Richard was transferred to a convalescent hospital at The Orchard in Dartford, Kent, where he stayed until the 30th of an illegible date. However, this was probably the 30th August. Orchard Hospital was a modern infectious diseases hospital built for the Metropolitan Asylum Board and taken over by the military in May 1915. On October 9th 1916 Richard went back to his depot's holding battalion, the 3rd Bn DCLI, which by then was stationed at Freshwater on the Isle of Wight. On October 24th 1916 he was admitted to hospital at Freshwater Isle of Wight suffering from nephritis (inflamed kidneys). I have been unable to identify the hospital, although it was a military hospital. After 16 days he was discharged and returned to duty on November 8th 1916. Any thoughts of Christmas at home were dismissed when he was posted to the Expeditionary Force France on December 23rd 1916 leaving Soton (Southampton) for No 2 Infantry Base Depot at Rouen where he spent two weeks. He was allocated to the 1st Bn DCLI and "proceeded to join battalion" on January 7th 1917. He arrived at their location "in the field" the next day, probably wearing a wound stripe on the left sleeve of his tunic.
The 1st DCLI were with 95 Infantry Brigade in the 5th Infantry Division. After fighting on the Somme in 1916 the Division was now holding a quieter part of the line at Festubert until they were engaged in the Battle of Vimy Ridge which was part of the opening phase of the Battle of Arras in April 1917.
It seems probable that Richard fought in this engagement which lasted from the day after Easter Sunday from the 9th to the 12th of April 1917. At the end of the month, on April 26th 1917 he was at an unidentified "transportation depot" at Boulogne. This was indicated by Army Form B213 which was the "Field Return for Effective Strength of Unit". He was detached from his unit, either remaining on or off the effective strength. He may have been posted to work at a base depot or he could have been on the move, having been identified as an electrical engineer. He wouldn't have been kicking sand, but he was not moved to the Royal Engineers until an order of July 3 1917 came through from the Deputy Adjutant General under Army Order 204 of 1916. This order allowed for the compulsory transfer of men "in the interests of the service". Richard joined the Royal Engineers on July 13th 1917 and on the next day was posted as a Sapper, permanent linesman (wireman), Royal Engineers No. 252788. The location is illegible. He was posted to L Signal Battalion (also shown as L Signal Company) of the Royal Engineers Signal Service as a wireman. This was specialist work, supervised by the staff of the General Post Office. The second-in-command of L Battalion was Albert George Lee. The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers Global History Forum says: "During the war [Lee] was in command of a telegraph construction company, and later took the role of Officer-in-Charge, General Headquarters Signal Area, and second in command of L. Signal Battalion. At the conclusion of the war he held the rank of Major." Lee later developed the transatlantic telephone and short-wave telephone service. One-time infantry signaller Eric (Ernest) Hiscock told how he was shown into a room full of components and told to build a switchboard from scratch which he did to the praise of a supervising GPO official ("The Bells of Hell Go Ting-a-Ling-a-Ling", Eric Hiscock, 1976). The wireless and telegraph companies had been formed in 1907 with a school at Chatham and were part of the Royal Engineers Signal Service until 1920. From 1917 they employed members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps (WAAC) as telegraphists in France. Railways relied on the telegraph system for signalling trains and communication both on the national lines and the narrow gauge, both operated by Royal Engineers. They were the mainstay of wartime logistics. All railways came under military control ("Railway Manual, War", Crown Copyright, 1911). On December 30th 1917 Richard was granted home leave until January 13th 1918. When he returned he took a trade test and was "raised to the skilled rate of engineer pay" on 21 February 1918. Blargies and Romescamps are villages alongside the French railways. A rail regulating station was between a depot in the rear and a railhead near the front. Regulating stations were under the control of general staff officers whose task was to move men and equipment to the front and hospital trains to the rear. As fighting increased, rail services in both directions increased and shuttle lines were built between the regulating stations and the rail-heads to provide inter-connectivity, allowing for very flexible movement. Both Blargies and Romescamps were near the sizeable dumps and depots at Abancourt. In 1918 the fighting on the Somme involved movement as the enemy initially pushed West in March and were then pursued to the East. As the allies moved East, so their supplies and the railways carrying them had to be extended to keep up with the advance Eastwards. Repairing and creating the telegraph system would have been vital. Richard had a fortnight's UK leave in January 1919 and another fortnight's UK leave in June. [more follows]

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 5th March 2010 at 6:54 PM
[Part two]
Richard's Statement As To Disability Form which was signed in August 1919 showed the location as Gouys/Somme which was Gouy sur Somme. There is a Gouy a few miles West of Abbeville on the Canal de la Somme. The signature does appears to be F. H. Steggard OC No 7 R.T.C.. This was probably Captain Frank H. Stegall, Royal Engineers, of Ipswich. Richard's Protection Certificate (for claiming benefits) was issued by No 1 Dispersal Unit at Fovant near Salisbury on August 22 1919. He qualified for the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal.
The war diary of the 7th Bn DCLI is held at the National Archives in WO 95/2126. You can request a quote for photocopying the part you want (May-June 1916) See
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue
Enter WO 95/2126 in the "Go to reference" box; click on 7 DCLI and click on "request this" and then click on "request an estimate". Richard's service record in two parts can be downloaded from the Ancestry website (Charges apply. Some libraries provide free access).
I don't think, Harry, that your research is minor. Without it I wouldn't have been able to place many of the events above.
Kind regards,

Alan

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 5th March 2010 at 9:04 PM
Stegall should read Steggall

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Reply from: Harry
Date: Sunday 7th March 2010 at 11:30 AM
Dear Alan,
Many thanks indeed for your in-depth research on my father's service in WW1. I expected to be amazed at your relevations but you surprised me even so. I have taken some years of part research and you do more in a few days!
Again many thanks the family will enjoy his past history. A cheque in grateful thanks will be sent to th Royal British Legion.
Best regards,

Harry

I am trying to trace the burial site of my wifes great grand mother Elizabet Hughes. we know her husband John hughes was a seargent in the 1st inniskillen fusilliers and saw sevice in India or at least that part of the world.His wife died whilst in "India" with her husband who returned to England about 1897 with their two small daughters aged about 6 and 8. How can i find out exactly where he would have been and does anyone know how close his wife would have been living whilst he was fighting?
Robert Davies

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 3rd March 2010 at 10:53 PM
Dear Robert,
The 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers took that name in1881. The regiment had two battalions with one abroad and one at home. They swapped roles every few years. I believe that up to 1900 the Inniskillings served in India, Malta, the Straits Settlements (Malacca, Prince of Wales Island, and Singapore) and South Africa. The First Battalion served in the Second Anglo-Boer War 1899-1902.
A sergeant and his family would have lived in NCO's married quarters in a British Army cantonment in India and the family may even have had a servant or two. The garrison would have had at least an Anglican church and a cemetery. Garrisons elsewhere would have provided married quarters and a garrison church and cemetery. So Elizabet(h) would be buried at the garrison where she died unless she was travelling or died at sea.
Birth, deaths and marriages were recorded by the Army and copies of conventional General Register Office certificates can be issued from those records. The Garrison or regimental commander usually signed the original records.
The first task is to establish the deployment record of the 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in detail. The regimental museum should be able to provide that information from their regimental history. You can contact them at The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum, The Castle, Enniskillen, Co. Fermanagh, Northern Ireland, BT74 7HL Tel: + 44 (0) 28 6632 3142 . Museums are charities and the offer of a donation (say GBP 10) generally encourages a full reply. A museum probably won't have any personal records, so the aim is to be as precise as possible about exactly where the 1st Battalion was and when.
I should add that you should try and establish if John served with the 1st Battalion all the time. In the late 19th Century when each regiment had two battalions I have come across demobilisation records of men who were transferred to the reserve by the "Home" battalion in the UK, although they had spent their entire service with the other battalion in India. If the demob papers from the home battalion administering those papers are the only ones to survive they can be misleading.
Next, gather any information you, or relatives, may have regarding dates and places of birth, marriages and deaths of the family. You say the daughters were aged about six and eight in 1897 (born 1889 and 1891). If you can be more precise that will help a search for where they were born. John may have left the Army in 1897 or he may have returned with them to serve in the UK in which case he might have fought in South Africa, or he could have been recalled from the reserves in 1899. If his Victorian military service record has survived, it will be at The National Archives in London. These records are being digitised for release online later this year. See website below.
Army births, marriages and deaths were recorded and indexed. These indexes can be manually searched by year on the Findmypast website (subscription required or pay per view credits starting from GBP 6-95). From the information there you can order regular birth, marriage and death certificates using the record of place, year and page number.
If the event was in India then the Anglican churches there would have sent their parish records to the India Office. These records are now held in the Asia and Pacific Collection of the British Library at St Pancras in London (registration and photo-proof of ID and residence required). They claim to have registers of 70 per cent of all events in India during British rule. You need to know which part ("presidency") of India you are looking in. However, the staff are very helpful, plus there were only three presidencies. Again, knowing where and in which years to look is helpful.
Believe me, it can be done. Last year I researched an Army family that served in Bermuda, India and South Africa. I found most of their births and deaths in the Army indexes and I travelled to London one day and within an hour or so I found eleven out of twelve India parish register records I wanted at the British Library. It's much more of an adventure that sitting at a keyboard.
If you need any further help, get back in touch.
Kind regards,
Alan

Useful advice: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/inrrooms/stp/register/stpregister.html
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmysoldierupto1913.htm?WT.lp=rg-3110
http://www.groni.gov.uk/
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

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Reply from: Robert Davies100 Com
Date: Thursday 4th March 2010 at 9:21 AM
Thank you Alan
That has been extremley helpful, we have the family plotted back in england in 1901 so thats not a problem, its just finding out where the regiment was in 1887 or thereabouts. your information should really help me in my quest. Thank you again

Robert

To Alan Greveson.

Dear Alan,

I have spent hours and hours on the London Gazette website in failed attempts to find citations for officers who were awarded the D.S.O or Military Cross. The secret of finding this information still eludes me, and I wish I had the format! My latest failed attempt is for:

Scott, John Davie. D.S.O.
Lieutenant Colonel. Royal Irish Regiment, 2nd Battalion and Commanding 3rd Battalion.

Last Days in Action: He was killed on 21 March 1918, age 28, at Borry farm, in what became known as the Battle of Langemarck.

War Diary – Lempire in Aisne on 21 March 1918: Shortly after the barrage had ceased, rifle fire close to battalion headquarters announced the arrival of the enemy. Lt.-Col. Scott ordered his headquarters personnel to man Rose Trench, a forward trench on the Red Line at the tip of the Lempire defences. Rose Trench became untenable when ammunition began to run out, the Royal Irish withdrew to Irish Trench. Lt.-Col. Scott was killed and the remnant came under incessant attack at 1415hrs.

Gallantry awards: Distinguished Service Order (DSO) * Mentioned in Despatches, one emblem.

Campaign medals: 1914/15 Star * British War * Victory.

I have his documents and I gleaned additional information from his former school, St. Columba's College.

Can you please help me?

Best wishes,
Ken.

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 3rd March 2010 at 8:13 PM
Dear Ken,
I have not been able to find a citation for the DSO and I suspect this may be because of the date on which the award was announced: January 1st 1918.
During WW1 the DSO was awarded for meritorious or distinguished service as well as for acts of gallantry. There were some early cases of staff officers gaining the award and in early 1917 it was stressed the DSO was for distinguished service for officers who were in contact with the enemy. After the instigation of the Military Cross the DSO was generally awarded to field officers of Major and above who were not eligible for the Companion of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath (CB). During WW1 one of the qualifications for the award was that the officer must have already been Mentioned in Despatches. The total number of DSOs awarded was 8,981 and many of them were conferred in the King's Birthday Honours or the New Year's Honours. These awards, while still for officers commanding troops at the front who had given meritorious or distinguished service, did not recognise an individual act of gallantry and therefore had no citation.
In 1909 John Davie Scott was included in a list of "Gentlemen Cadets from the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst to be Second Lieutenants 18 September 1909...The Royal Irish Regiment John Davie Scott admitted to the Indian Army..." (London Gazette, September 17, 1909, page 6961).
In the summer of 1917 Captain J.D. Scott of the Royal Irish Regiment rose from the rank of Captain, through Major, to Lieutenant-Colonel in three months. He was promoted to Acting Major while serving on the Headquarters of a Battalion on May 16th 1917 (London Gazette Supplement, July 24 1917 page 7561). On August 25th 1917 Capt (acting Major) J D Scott was promoted to acting Lieutenant-Colonel whilst commanding a battalion. (London Gazette Supplement, October 13, 1917 page 10551). On December 18th 1917, a Supplement to the London Gazette of December 14th published "a continuation of Sir Douglas Haig's despatch of 7th November submitting names deserving special mention..." in which it was announced that Infantry Battalions would be listed on the 18th December 1917. "Royal Irish Regiment; Scott, Capt (actg. Lt-Col) J.D." This was his M.I.D. for which he earned his "one emblem" (oak leaf) noted on his Medal Rolls Index card (London Gazette, December 18, 1917, page 13232).
On January 1st 1918 a supplement to the London Gazette was published: "His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the undermentioned rewards for distinguished service in the Field, dated 1st January 1918:- Awarded the Distinguished Service Order... Capt (A/Maj) John Davie Scott, R Ir Regt." (London Gazette Supplement, January 1, 1918, pages 17 and 25).
Note the words "reward for distinguished service" and "in the Field" (indicating he was in contact with the enemy). This was a reward for "distinguished service" and was announced, apparently, in the King's New Year's Honours. Colonel Scott had already been Mentioned in Despatches on November 7th, either for an unspecified conspicuous act or because his exceptional performance as a newly promoted battalion commander led his superiors to ensure he was able to be recommended for the New Year's Honours. And that is why there appears to be no citation for the award.
The London Gazette search engine is a bit unforgiving. The first rule when searching for a soldier's WW1 Medal Rolls Index card on Ancestry or TNA Documents Online is always to repeat the search using his surname and first initial only. John Davie Scott has one campaign medals index card. However there were other types of index cards in WO272/23 and 24 and the National Archives advises: "The DCM, MM, MSM, TFEM, TEM and MiD indexes rarely use the first name of the recipient, so it is necessary to search using the soldier's first initial." J. D. Scott Capt (A/Lt-Col) has an MID medal card which simply showed in squiggly-wiggly "MID LG 11.12.17 page 13232".
When you find that medal card, you know where to search on the London Gazette (LG) website. The date is often a few days out because supplements were published after the actual Gazette of that date. If you search by page number do not enter any other details in the "word" boxes. Select WW1 in events and enter the page number. Open that page and then search using the PDF binoculars icon on the left of the opened page. Rule 2: try not to make general searches at weekends. Both the TNA Documents Online and LG search engines give the impression of being over-worked at weekends and either go pear-shaped or don't show all the results they have (that is my experience and I don't mean to offend any IT staff at either location). Rule 3: Use "exact phrase" and choose your words carefully. The LG search engine is very specific and appears, in my experience, to select the last word and its previous word or letter only. If you search for "Scott J" it will produce results for anyone called Scott followed by the next person's initial, "J". Searching for "Lt-Col J D Scott" will produce any entry with D Scott. Searching for Davie Scott in "exact phrase" produces some, not all, results. You then have to try other exact phrases such as "J D Scott" and "Scott J D" depending on how the Services wrote up the listings. If you get too many results, narrow the dates manually and search the most likely year at a time. You can also enter, for example, the name of the regiment, but bear in mind that was often abbreviated. Adding "Mentioned in Despatches" might not help as the lists were so long those words may not appear on the same page as the man's name (although in some instances the pages do have footers with the titles of the awards to which they refer). If searching for a gallantry medal it can help to use the "all the words" box and enter the surname with "gallantry" or "distinguished". The search engine has to search millions of pages so the more specific you can be the sharper your results will be. The more you enter, the greater the number of unwanted results. I hope that helps speed things up for you.
It's good to hear from you again, Ken. Good luck with your research and the work you are doing.
Kind regards,

Alan

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Reply from: Ken Kinsella
Date: Sunday 7th March 2010 at 10:54 AM
Dear Alan,

Thank you for information on J.D. Scott and his D.S.O., together with invaluable hints on searching for details of gallantry awards in the London Gazette. I will ensure that you and your website receive credit for all the information on Great War casualties.

In the meantime, I will make a contribution to your favourite charity, The British Legion.

Best wishes,

Ken.

Dear Alan,

I am seeking more information of my wife's grandfather, who was killed in 1914 as a widower, leaving two-small boys to be brought up by relatives. His army service prior to 1914 and his service in WW1 is information that would satisfy many in the family. Pvt Benjamin Manners No 9356 1st Batt Royal Warwickshire Regiment, killed 21st October 1914. He is listed on the Ploegsteert Memorial, Belgium.
The standard of your research is impressive, I hope you can locate information for us.
Best regards,

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 3rd March 2010 at 8:12 PM
Dear Cornelius,
No service record for Benjamin Manners appears to have survived. A surviving Medal Rolls Index card showed he left England on August 22nd 1914. The CWGC Debt of Honour showed he served with the 1st Battalion the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, as did "Soldiers Died in the Great War" (HMSO 1921) The National Roll of the Great War for Birmingham indicated he served with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. These four separate sources suggest he did not serve in any other regiment. The 1st Battalion RWR sailed for France on August 22nd 1914 therefore the record of the 1st Battalion RWR will reflect Benjamin's wartime service.
There is no obvious evidence he served in the army before the start of the war. The birth of a Benjamin Manners was registered at Nechells, Birmingham in the third quarter of 1884. Benjamin was the son of Joseph Manners by his second wife Phoebe Mees. They had married in 1883 after the death of Joseph's first wife, Louisa. Benjamin grew up in Nechells. His father died in 1891 and in 1901 he was a plasterer living with his widowed mother at 67 Long Acre, Nechells (RG13/2873 folio 171 page 49 indexed as Hannas). Benjamin married Blanche Pardoe in the second quarter of 1909 at Aston, Birmingham. Two years later they were living at 114 Highfield Road, Saltley with a son, Albert aged 1 ½ years and Edith Annie Pardoe, a sister-in-law. Benjamin Manners was a labourer at a motor works. (The Metropolitan Carriage and Wagon Company opened in Saltley in 1844 and Wolsley later had a works there). For a history and photo of Highfield Road see:
http://billdargue.jimdo.com/placenames-gazetteer-a-to-y/places-s/saltley/
It appears two more children were born to Benjamin and Blanche: George in 1912 and David L. in 1913. A George Manners died at Aston in 1912, so it appears Albert and David were the surviving children. Blanche Manners died in the summer of 1913. What Benjamin did in the year between Blanche's death and the start of WW1 is not clear. He could have joined the army, or he could have continued at work and at home.
The 1st Bn RWR was garrisoned at Shorncliffe Camp, Sandgate, near Folkestone with a detachment at Sheerness in August 1914. Officers on leave were re-called just after midnight in the early hours of July 30th and the battalion was mobilised at 7.05 p.m. on August 4th. War was declared at 11pm (midnight European time). The battalion was under-strength and 458 reservists (former soldiers) were re-called in the next three days. It is possible Benjamin, aged 29, was either a serving soldier or a reservist. However, the 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders, who served alongside the 1st RWR, were so under-strength they took on hundreds of recruits in the first few days. An invasion scare meant these two units were not sent to France, despite being on the South coast. Two companies were sent to Cromer on coast-watch. At 9.30 pm on August 7th they received orders to go to York by train and the first party moved off at 5.30 am on the 8th. They spent their first night at York racecourse grand-stand and the second night at the railway station with battalion HQ in the Railway Institute which still stands. After a week of training on York racecourse they moved into huts at Strensall Camp on the outskirts of the city where they stayed for four days before receiving orders to move by train to Harrow on 19th August where the 10th Infantry Brigade was forming-up. They went by train to Southampton in the early hours of August 22nd and crossed the Channel on board SS Caledonia which stayed the night off Boulogne. If Benjamin had been a recruit he could have joined the battalion during this three-week period in the UK. We know from his medal card that he entered France with his battalion which moved to Le Cateau and then St Python (East of Cambrai) on August 25th where they took up fire positions at a farm within sound of enemy firing and within sight of the retiring 18th Brigade. They marched to Aucourt, St Quentin and Ham (in a South-westerly direction) making contact with the enemy on the 26th. The next day the battalion had become split up and one party was asked by the Mayor of St Quentin to surrender on pain of German bombardment of the town. They swiftly withdrew the surrender. By the 31st the battalion was back together and moving again, blowing-up bridges in their wake. The first week of September saw them still on the move, passing 15 miles east of Paris in the autumn heat. By September 8th they were in contact with the enemy again at Hotel de Bois at Petit Courron. On September the 11th on the Marne they followed the retreating enemy to Villers-le-Petit in the direction of St Quentin. The next day they formed part of an advanced guard and the guns were shelling the enemy. At 10 pm on the 13th they crossed the River Aisne by pontoons, wrecked girders and rafts in the village of Venizel (The Battle of the Aisne). For four days they were at Bucy Le Long (East of Soissons which was held by the enemy until the 12th) where they were heavily shelled and took casualties. Until the end of the month they were at La Montagne farm at Bucy and a position known as the Cave which was North of a few houses at Le Moncel. The war diary notes the reconnaissance of a wood which was described as being "thick" – unlike the stark landscape later in the war. The battalion was grateful for the chance to recuperate in the trenches at Le Moncel, although they worried the trenches didn't have good fields of fire. Paperwork arrived immediately with a request for suggestions about carrying great coats and waterproof capes. The battalion thought the rations were regular and generous. They requested matches became part of the rations. Matches were constantly in short supply in WW1 and men would use a flint-striker which lit a smouldering cord that could be snuffed out. Discipline was "noticeably worse than in South Africa [Second Anglo Boer War 1899-1902] probably due to socialistic ideas imbibed by reservists"(Major A J Poole, commanding 1 R War R, Le Moncel 1st October 1914). Time to move on. After a week of shelling and sniping, during which they improved the trenches (some of the first of the war) the battalion was relieved by the French Chasseurs d'Alpine on October 6th and they marched to Hartennes [et Taux] via Septmonts, South of Soissons back across the Aisne. The next day they marched to Rozet St Albin and on the 9th they arrived at Vauciennes at 2 am (19 miles). Then they marched on to Rully (14 miles) and Verberie (5 miles) on October 10th. Two days later they moved by train to Boulogne, Calais and then St Omer where the town was bombed. Then they moved in motor buses, via a 40 mile detour, to Castre and Meteren on the 13th. At 10 am on the 13th they encountered the enemy on high ground at Meteren and were ordered to attack in what was described as a "perfect advance". By night they had taken Meteren but not without losses: 42 killed; 35 wounded. On the 17th they crossed the River Lys at Erquinhem by Armentieres on the Belgian border in an attack that helped relieve Armentieres and involved some street fighting. They were under enemy fire and enemy artillery shelled Houplines to their front on the 18th October. Six men were wounded and one killed on the 19th and on the 20th the men were in trenches at Houplines which were shelled at 7 am and for much of the day. On the 21st October in the trenches at Houplines the war diary noted: "Battles raging all round. Heavy shelling." This was the day Benjamin Manners died. The 1st Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment continued fighting for another month before they had a proper rest. Benjamin was awarded the 1914 Star with the dated Mons clasp, the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Ploegsteert ("Plug Street") Memorial which is in Berks Cemetery Extension 12 km South of Ypres (Ieper). This phase of the war was known as the battle of Messines, which involved the battle of Armentieres in the South of the line and the first battle of Ypres in the North, between 12th October and 2nd November. Having fought at Le Cateau, the Marne and the Aisne, Benjamin was one of the "Old Contemptibles" of the British Expeditionary Force.
The war diary of the 1st Bn Royal Warwickshire regiment can be downloaded for GBP3-50 from the National Archives Documents Online website. See
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
Enter "1 Royal Warwickshire" in the quicksearch box and click on "War Diaries" in the results. Scroll through the pages until you find 10 INFANTRY BRIGADE: 1 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment 1914 Aug. - 1919 June. WO 95/1484 . Click on "See details" and then click "add to shopping". You can save each of the three files to your computer.
Kind regards
Alan
Further reading: http://www.brucebairnsfather.org.uk/index_files/page0110.htm

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Reply from: Cornelius
Date: Thursday 4th March 2010 at 11:44 AM
Dear Alan,
Very many thanks for the detailed information for Benjamin Manners, and in such a short time span. The family had thought that he was a regular soldier, but however you show he must have joined just prior to WW1.
A cheque will be sent to The Royal British Legion, and our many thanks for your industry on our behalf.
Best regards,
Cornelius

Hello Alan our family are trying to find out more about our Great Uncle who served in W.W.1 and was awarded the M.M. his name was Private 22922 James Clifton and he was in the Bedfordshire Regiment we think it may have been the 1st Battalion . My grandfather also served in the 1st Battalion Bedfordshire Rgt he was killed his name was Frederick George Tiller Private 7400 in 1914 could you please help me with this as well thankyou
Yours Sincerely Andrew

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 1st March 2010 at 9:25 PM
Dear Andrew,
At the outbreak of WW1, the 1st Battalion the Bedfordshire Regiment was a regular army battalion stationed in Ireland at the garrison town of Mullingar in County Westmeath. This was probably at the Wellington barracks, since renamed Columb Barracks. The Battalion mobilized and moved to France directly from Ireland on August 16th 1914. No service record appears to have survived for Frederick but a surviving Medal Rolls Index card for Frederick George Tiller, 7400, showed he entered France on August 26th 1914. He could have been a regular soldier, but the circumstantial evidence indicates he volunteered at the outbreak of war when Kitchener called for the "first one hundred thousand men". The first recruiting offices were in London and Frederick enlisted at Tottenham ("Soldiers Died in the Great War" HMSO 1921) where his family had lived. In 1911 his mother, Hannah, was living or staying with him in Cambridgeshire. As a widow in 1901 she had lived in Tottenham and Wood Green. If Hannah was only visiting in 1911, it is feasible Frederick went to Tottenham to say farewell to his mother before enlisting in 1914. In 1901 Frederick was living in Wood Green with his brother Walter. He was married to Riba Thacker of Croydon Cambs. in 1909 and the births of two later children, Walter 1912 and Ruby 1913, imply he was living at Croydon Cambs. in the period before the war. The war diary of the 1st Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment stated that three officers were sent to the Depot in Bedford "to train new units". Later in August the depot battalion moved to Felixstowe. The diary noted the first draft of reinforcements arrived at the Battalion's location in France on September 4th 1914 under Captain Basil John Orlebar. Captain Orlebar's medal card showed he arrived in France on August 23rd. Therefore it is likely that Frederick was with this first draft of reinforcements. Orlebar's obituary showed he was with the Depot battalion and then attached to the first battalion. It described him as being "rushed across the channel after the heavy losses at Mons the previous month" with reinforcements. It could easily have taken a week for the draft to travel to the front and find its battalion. The Depot would have had some recruits under training at the start of the war and would have handled men who had had previous military service and were returning from the Reserve. It is feasible Frederick had spent some time with the volunteers like Isaac Favel, who married James Clifton's sister. He may have had just a month's military training before being sent to France. When the draft arrived in France, the battalion had retreated from Mons and retired to Mont Pichet where they blew the bridges over the canal and river before moving to Gagny and La Celle eventually crossing the rivers Marne and Aisne. After the battle on the Aisne the British Expeditionary Force was ordered by Sir John French to stand its ground and trench warfare began. By November 1914, the 1st Battalion the Bedfordshire Regiment was in the area of Gorre near Festubert where it received orders to move to Locon on November 5th. The following day the men were moved in motor buses and then on foot via Ypres and Hooge to trenches South of the Menin Road. On the 7th November the enemy broke through their trenches but were pushed back. On November 9th the battalion mounted a raid on the enemy's trenches and lost 17 killed and seven wounded. On November 11th the enemy broke through the line 200 yards from the Bedfordshire Regiment and then attacked the Bedfordshire's line killing five and wounding seventeen men. Frederick Tiller died of wounds on November 11th 1914. He was probably wounded on the 11th, although he may have been hurt on the 9th. He was buried, aged 32, at the Old Military Cemetery at Poperinghe, Belgium. The Old Military Cemetery was made in the course of the First Battle of Ypres and Frederick is buried in plot 1, row M, grave 70. He is commemorated on the Croydon cum Clapton war memorial along with Walter Thacker. He qualified for the 1914 Star with Mons clasp dated 5th Aug - 22nd Nov 1914; the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal.
James Clifton was born in the summer of 1894. No service record has survived for him however a surviving Medal Rolls Index card showed he entered France after January 1st 1916, as he did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star which was awarded for service abroad before December 31st 1915. He enlisted in the Bedfordshire Regiment with the regimental number 22922. This number shows he did not serve in a Territorial Force battalion (which would have been changed to a new six-figure number after March 1917). He therefore enlisted in a reserve (i.e. training) or a war service battalion of the New Armies either as a volunteer who was not posted abroad until 1916 or he was conscripted into the army after January 1916 when compulsory conscription was introduced. As no service record has survived it is not possible to say when he enlisted or whether he served in another battalion before he joined the 1st Battalion. The only primary evidence he served with the 1st Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment was dated in July 1919. It is most likely he was drafted into the 1st Battalion from England, once he was trained during or after 1916. However, it is also possible he served with another service battalion of the regiment abroad and was posted to the 1st Battalion at a later stage in the war.
In 1911 James Clifton was living with, or visiting, his brother- in-law Isaac Favel at Hemmingford Abbots. Isaac's war service (outlined below in this forum) shows he enlisted in October 1914 and served in Home Defence before being transferred and serving abroad from December 1916. It is possible James had a similar experience, but there is no evidence.
The government's official publication, The London Gazette, published the following in a supplement to its edition of Tuesday July 22, 1919: "His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Military Medal for bravery in the field to the under-mentioned Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men:" In the following list under the Bedfordshire Regiment is named "22922 Pte. Clifton, J., 1st Bn. (Hemingford Grey)." (London Gazette, supplement July 23 1919 page 9369). As is often the case, there is no citation to indicate when or why he was awarded the medal. A citation was included with the medal but soldiers were warned that no copies were kept and they were responsible for preserving it. The Military Medal had been instigated in 1916 for acts of gallantry on land in presence of the enemy. James's act of bravery was therefore probably in the later weeks of the war in 1918. I have been unable to find a Medal Index Card for the Military Medal itself.
The war diary of the 1st Battalion shows they were heavily engaged in the final days of the war and incurred many casualties when they were in contact with the enemy.
The history of the 1st Battalion during James's time included the fighting on the Somme in late July 1916 at High Wood; Longueval; Guillemont and at Flers-Courcelette in September. In 1917 they were involved in the Battle of Arras and the Third Battle of the Scarpe in May; the capture of Oppy Wood in June; the Third Battle of Ypres (Passchendaele); Broodseinde and Poelcapelle in October and then the Second battle of Passchendaele in October and November, before being sent to Italy where there was a temporary need to strengthen the front after the failed battle of Caporetto.
In 1918 the battalion returned to the Western Front in response to the German Spring Offensive and fought in the Battle of the Lys at Hazebrouck. In the final one hundred days from August 1918 they were engaged in several actions including the Battle of Albert and the Second Battle of Bapaume on the Somme in September. During the final advance they were engaged at the Canal du Nord in September during the Battle for the Hindenburg Line and the Battle of the Selle during the Final Advance in Picardy.
The war diary of the 1st Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment is available online at
http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/1stbn/1stbtn1914diary.html
The London Gazette can be searched at
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
I have been unable to find anything more about James and his act of bravery. The regimental museum is co-located at the Imperial War Museum site at Duxford. See
http://www.royalanglianmuseum.org.uk/Bedsandherts.html
Kind regards,

Alan

Dear Alan
Like John before me I too have made a donation to the British Legion for all the wonderful help you have given me. I now wonder if you could assist me with another great uncle from the Sadler family ( you may remember Frederick Sadler from Birmingham?). Alfred Sadler b.1888 according to the 1901 census- although many of the dates of birth are incorrect for the family on this. I have found a service record for Alfred which has many service numbers: 3655, 3633, Absent Voters register for B'ham 1918 -258731-although I think that should read 253871, 78883 and as usual I find it hard to piece together what his service history was. Also is there any way to categorically say this is Frederick's brother? Both of these men are hopefully my Grandfather, Harry Sadler's elder brothers.
With grateful thanks as always
Anne

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 24th February 2010 at 10:05 PM
Dear Anne,
Alfred Sadler enlisted at Birmingham on January 9th 1915 in the 8th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment with the regimental number 3655. He gave his year of birth as 1881 and his address was 30 Hanley Street, Birmingham, which later changed to 86 Lower Tower Street, which was two streets away. He indicated he had previously served six years with the 3rd South Staffordshire Regiment. It is not clear when these six years were served, but it is likely they were part-time service with either the 3rd (Militia) Battalion: 1st Battalion (The King's Own) 1st Staffordshire Militia or the 3rd Volunteer Battalion which in 1908 became the 6th Battalion South Staffordshire Regiment in the Territorial Force. On January 9th he was attested (swore an oath to serve the King) and embodied. "Embodied" meant called-up for war service, as the 8th Battalion was part of the county Territorial Force as opposed to one of Kitchener's New Army war-service battalions. Territorial soldiers were intended for Home Defence, but they generally volunteered for service abroad and Alfred's file includes his signed Agreement to serve abroad.
A Medal Rolls Index card showed he qualified for the British War and Victory Medals and was granted a Silver War Badge for being wounded. He did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star so he entered France in 1916 or later.
There were three battalions of the Warwickshire Regiment with the title 8th. The original was a Territorial Force battalion at Aston Manor, Birmingham. The 2nd/8th Battalion was raised in Birmingham in October 1914 and went to France in May 1916. The 3rd/8th Battalion was raised in May 1915 and became the 8th Reserve Battalion on April 8th 1916 after which it stayed in England on Home Defence throughout the war. When Alfred enlisted, in January 1915, the 3rd/8th Battalion did not exist. He was described as being in the 8th (Reserve) Battalion on January 9, 1915 so this would have been the 2nd/8th Battalion which was the reserve of its time. The battalion trained at Northampton and near Chelmsford in Essex where it joined the 182nd Infantry Brigade in the 61st Infantry Division. In March 1916 they were training at Salisbury Plain. While at Maldon near Chelmsford in October 1915 Alfred was in "B" Company 2nd/8th Battalion when he overstayed he pass from midnight to 7.30 pm and was CB for 3 days (Confined to Barracks) and lost two days' pay. In December 1915 and later at Tidworth in 1916 he again overstayed his pass or leave and forfeited pay. These were not serious offences and were quite common. King George V inspected the Division at Bulford on 5 May 1916. From Salisbury Plain the battalion set off for France in May 1916 arriving on May 21st and concentrating in the area around Merville, East of Lillers. At some stage, Alfred was appointed a lance-corporal. This gave him responsibility for eight men in his section and when in the trenches he would have shared out their daily rations when they arrived. It was not easy cutting a loaf of bread into eight equal portions using a bayonet or pocket knife.
Alfred was wounded in the left thigh and chest. This was marked GSW meaning gun shot wound, which was most probably shrapnel. Shrapnel was lead shot exploded above head-height from artillery shells. Soldiers were often exposed to shrapnel while on nightly working parties, carrying stores up through the communication trenches. The enemy often knew when front line trenches were being relieved and shelled them then, knowing there would be twice the normal number of soldiers in the area. Alfred left France on 11th July 1916 and arrived in England the next day. It is most likely that he was injured during enemy shelling while in daily trench routine a few days before he left France. Alfred would have missed his battalion's first major battle which was the attack at Fromelles, on the Aubers Ridge South of Armentieres. The battle involved heavy losses among the British and Australians and was described as the worst day in Australia's history. The attack by 61st Division was pushed through at 6pm onto a feature known as the Sugar Loaf on 19 July 1916 at Fromelles, but the Division lost 1547 men. Among the enemy behind the ridge was a young Adolf Hitler. Alfred was granted leave from Q.A.M [Queen Alexandra's Military] Hospital, Millbank, London, on September 2nd 1916. A chit showed he was fit for "Light Duty and fit for Service Overseas within three months". If this was issued at the same time he had leave from hospital he would be fit for service abroad from December 2nd 1916. However, his leave form was faintly marked: "Suitable for Command depot" above "I consider him fit for light duty".
The next dated entry is marked C.D. (B) on 15.5.17. This could stand for Command Depot (B). Early in 1916 Command Depots were created for the rehabilitation and re-training of soldiers not fit enough to be returned to their units. Each depot had four squadrons named Red, Green, Blue and Yellow in descending order of fitness. There is no location for the entry but is appears Alfred was still recuperating in May 1917, perhaps in Blue (B) squadron. While there he was deprived of his lance-corporal's stripe after four days' absence. This seems a little harsh for a man who had served at the front as a lance-corporal and he probably resented the punishment being handed down from a UK "base wallah" who may not have been to the Front. However it had not been his first offence and he knew what he was risking. On July 7th 1917 he was transferred to the Labour Corps. He was given a new number, 253871 and was posted to the 690th (Home Service) Employment Company. On 11 February 1918 Alfred was posted to another company which is illegible. In May 1918 he was transferred to the Royal Defence Corps and served with 259 Prot Coy [Protection Company] with a new number: 78883. The Company served in Southern Command and was based at Dorchester. The RDC was formed in late 1917 for the defence of Sensitive Military Areas, supervising Prisoners of War and protecting vulnerable points (bridges etc). As sensitive military areas and vulnerable points had not been infringed for over three years, most men were employed in guarding prisoners. 14000 men looked after prisoners compared to 8000 guarding vulnerable points. The RDC was formed of men who were not able to fight abroad on medical grounds. Alfred served with the RDC until he was demobilised.
It is often supposed that men who returned to England wounded were relieved to be out of the war. However getting a "Blighty" (Home-country) wound often left soldiers feeling guilty and missing their colleagues at the front. Alfred had served in the army before the war and had served and trained with his friends for two-and-a-half years before being wounded and swiftly returning to England, not to re-join his friends. Serving in the Labour Corps and the Defence Corps might not have suited him. He certainly absented himself on numerous occasions, indicating some displeasure.
Alfred was demobilised officially from 15th April 1919, but his Protection Certificate was dated 18th March 1919. This certificate was issued, often with a book of dole tokens, to enable unemployed soldiers to claim benefits. He was granted an allowance of 7s 6d a week for a year followed by a ten pounds final gratuity. He had suffered from nephritis (swollen kidney) which was not attributable to the war (N.A.) and gun shot wound which was attributable. His Silver War Badge, indicating he had been wounded, was accompanied by a King's Certificate of gratitude. On December 31st 1919 the Ministry of Pensions wrote to the Royal Defence Corps saying Alfred would not qualify for a pension.

I have tried to establish whether Frederick and Alfred were older brothers of your grandfather Harry. The only way to establish this for certain is to acquire the relevant birth and marriage certificates from the General Register Office to establish who their parents were. From the England census returns it appears there were many Sadler families (occasionally indexed as Sudler and even Swaddler) in the Birmingham area. Alfred was married to Prudence who appears to be Prudence Swan in 1910 (GRO marriages, Q1 1910 Birmingham vol 6d page 164) and they had a child, Alfred Augustus born late in the last quarter of 1910 (GRO births Q4 1910 Birmingham vol 6d page 106). Three years before the war started they lived at Court 4/5 No. 6 William Street North, which was an extension of Hanley Street. Alfred's army papers said he was born in 1881 and the birth of an Alfred Sadler was registered in Oct, Nov, Dec, 1881 at Kings Norton registration district (GRO births, Q4 1881, Kings Norton, vol 6c page 478). However, his age was inconsistent over the years.
Frederick Sadler gave his mother's address as 62 Hatchett Street, Birmingham. Her name was Annie. A widow, Annie Sadler lived at 25 Manchester Street with her children, three years before the war started. Her children included Annie, Frederick, Alice, Harry and Lily. Manchester Street was opposite Hatchett Street where Annie Sadler was living during the war. In 1901 a William and Annie Sadler lived at 14 Manchester Street with Annie, William, Alfred, Alice, Harold and George. In 1891 this family lived at Ward Street with children William, Annie and Frederick, aged 1. Ward Street was off Little Tower Street. So there is some evidence that Frederick, Alfred and Harry could all have been children of William and Annie. Certainly by location they appear to be the same family. However, there are many other Sadler families in the area with similarly named children and the names Frederick, Harry and Alfred each have their inter-changeable variations: Alfred, Fred, Frederick; Harry, Henry, Harold. The three appear to be brothers but the only proof is through GRO certificates. Thank you for making a donation to RBL. Let me know how you get on.
Kind regards,

Alan

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Reply from: Anne Lewis
Date: Thursday 25th February 2010 at 11:07 AM
Dear Alan
As always a wonderfully comprehensive account of Alfred's war service. I only hope now he does turn out to be Harry's elder brother, although even if he's not I have once again learnt so much about what serving in WW1 was really like ( I particularly liked the details of Alfred's duties as a Lance Corporal). I will follow your advice and obtain the GRO certificates for Alfred. Harry and Frederick I am sure are brothers, as my Grandfather gave his address on his 1925 marriage certificate as 62 Hatchett Street - as well as registering the death of his first born child to that address. However I agree with you that there are many Sadler's in the area and care must be taken. I will get back to you when I have made some progress.
With many thanks once again
Anne

Hello Alan I am researching the W.W.1 service record of my 2x Great uncle Pte Walter Thacker 122719, 9th Labour Bn transferred to (294745) 708th coy Labour Corps Royal Engineers he is buried in Canada Farm Cemetry, his name is on the Village War Memorial in Croydon cambs with my grandfather and his nephew Pte Albert Green 1560611th Suffolk Regiment any information you could give me would be very much apreciated.
I have just posted a cheque to The British Legion for a search you have just done for me and more than willing to make another donation, many thanks for what you have done for me.

Kind Regards John.

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 24th February 2010 at 3:20 PM
Dear John,
Walter Thacker was 41 years old when war was declared and consequently was over the maximum age limit for volunteering. The maximum age was 30 in August 1914; 38 in October 1914 and 40 in May 1915. No service record appears to have survived, but a Medal Rolls Index card has survived and that showed he entered France on October 2nd 1915 as a pioneer (private soldier) with the Royal Engineers with the regimental number 122719. The card was updated to show his correct number was 122791. His CWGC record showed he served with the 9th Labour Battalion Royal Engineers. There were only 11 of these battalions created during the war. They were recruited from men who were experienced as navvies, tradesmen and semi-skilled labourers and who were over-age for the infantry. The first battalions were created in May and June 1915 and the earliest arrived in France in August 1915, so it is apparent that military training was not a priority. The Labour Battalions came under the command of the five Armies in France and the 9th Labour Battalion was allocated, alongside the 6th Labour Battalion, to the Fifth Army. Their task was essentially to build and maintain roads but they were also employed on creating rear area defences and any other semi-skilled engineering works deemed necessary. Maintaining roads was essential to the movement of troops and stores but it was also hazardous work as it meant working in the open in areas that were accurately shelled by the enemy artillery.
Walter came from a farming background and was born in the summer of 1873 at Croydon cum Clapton in Cambridgeshire where his father was an agricultural labourer. However, in the 1901 Census what appears to be Walter Thacker (shown to be born in Croydon Surrey) was living with his wife Louisa at 59 Salisbury Road, Wood Green, London. A Walter Thacker and a Louisa Rhoda Hughes, from Colchester, had married at Edmonton District (Wood Green) in 1899. Walter was described as an "excavator". It is possible he had moved to London to work as a navvy, perhaps on the Underground. At this time some of the deep tube tunnels were being excavated for the Central Line (Shepherd's Bush – Bank) and the City and South London line extensions around Angel. By the time of the next census ten years later, Walter and Louisa were back at Croydon, Cambs.. When the Labour Battalions were conceived, Walter was qualified to join them and earn three shillings a day – a special rate which was three-times the minimum army wage. Walter enlisted at Whitehall, London ("Soldiers Died in the Great War" HMSO 1921) but gave his residence as Croydon, Cambs.. It appears he may have travelled to London especially to join up. The base depot for the Labour Battalions was established at Southampton in 1915 until 1917.
The history of the Labour Battalions R.E. is not well documented. The official "Organization and Expansion of the Corps 1914-18" sums up their existence in just 14 lines. So, Walter's army career will have to follow that of the Fifth Army to which the 9th Battalion was attached. (You can read the battalion's war diary at The National Archives – see below). The Fifth Army was created on May 23rd 1916, originally designated as the Reserve Army under the command of General Hubert Gough. During the first great Battle of the Somme on July 1, 1916 Gough was tasked with providing the "breakthrough" after the initial attack had taken the enemy front line trenches. This didn't happen and Gough, who took command at 7 am on July 2nd 1916, immediately cancelled orders for an attack at Beaumont Hamel. The Reserve Army took control of the Northern sector on July 4th and was engaged at Pozieres and Mouquet Farm ("Mucky Farm") and the battle of the two villages named Flers and Courcelette between the 15th and 22nd September 1916. The British attack began in the morning of the 15th of September on a wide front stretching from Bouleaux Wood to Mouquet Farm. The troops captured Courcelette, pushed forward near Mouquet Farm, secured Martinpuich and captured High Wood and Flers. The advance ended at Bouleaux Wood. The major battle of Thiepval Ridge was fought between September 26th and 28th. In October they fought a series of engagement known as the Battle of the Ancre Heights (Transloy Ridges) after which, on October 30th, the reserve army was re-named the Fifth Army. During this time there was heavy rain and the damaged water-courses turned the land into a quagmire. Shelling and movement destroyed roads which needed re-building. It is also possible the Labour Battalion was tasked with grave-digging. The last major battle of the 1916 Somme offensive was the consolidation of the Ancre River positions in mid-November for the coming winter. The Fifth Army was next engaged at the Battle of Arras in April 1917. However, changes in the Army structure meant changes for Walter Thacker.
It was decided the Labour Battalions would become part of the Labour Corps which was created in February 1917 and organised into Labour Corps Companies by April 1917. In France Divisional, Corps and Army Employment Companies were formed. These companies had between 270 and 500 men each, with the exception of the smaller Army Employment Companies which were 120 strong. Walter was transferred to the Labour Corps with a new cap badge and a new number: 294745. He was in the 708th Labour Company. Despite the re-organisation, it seems likely they stayed with the Fifth Army who had moved North to the Ypres sector. The fighting in 1917 became known as the Third Battle of Ypres which started on 31 July with the battle at Pilkem that lasted until August 2nd 1917. The next phase was the capture of Westhoek on August 10th and the Battle of Langemarck between August 16th and 18th 1917. On September 2nd, when Walter was killed, the Labour Corps lost 16 men.
They were near Elverdinge and the local field dressing station was at Canada Farm where a cemetery was created in June 1917.
Walter qualified for the 1914-15 Star for service abroad before December 31st 1915; the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal. His medal index card showed the War Medal was returned in April 1921 and re-issued in November 1921. The card is marked with a regimental number corrected from 122719 to 122791 and it seems possible the War Medal had been issued in the name of Walter Cowlbeck who was elsewhere shown as having the Royal Engineers number 122791 and the Labour Corps number 294346.
The War Diary of the 9th Labour Battalion Royal Engineers is held by the National Archives at Kew in series W095/559 (Fifth Army) dated between May 1915 and July 1917. I have not been able to locate the diary of 708 Labour Company but it may be included in WO95/571 (38 and 66 Labour Group Headquarters, Fifth Army May-Oct 1917).
For more on the Royal Engineers see:
http://www.reubique.com/
For more on the Labour Corps see
http://www.labourcorps.co.uk/Pages/The%20Labour%20Corps.html
If you cannot get to Kew it is worth searching for "9 Labour Battalion Royal Engineers" on the "Search the Archives" page of their website. It will produce one result. Click on the underlined blue title to get to the details page (you sometimes have to go back and click again if you don't get the details page). The click on "Request this". From that page you can ask for an estimate to copy the document. It may be cheaper than the train fare. Most war diaries have a page per week, so you can anticipate 100 or more pages.

Albert Green joined the 11th Battalion the Suffolk Regiment, enlisting at Cambridge. This was a "Pals" style of battalion, raised at the expense of the county Territorial Association on September 25th 1914 at Cambridge and taken over by the War Office on July 1st 1915. It trained at Ripon, then Perham Down and Warminster before sailing for France on the 9th January 1916 with the 101st Brigade in the 34th Infantry Division. No service record appears to have survived for Albert Green. However there is an excellent website devoted to the 11th Battalion, complete with war diary, at
http://www.curme.co.uk/102.htm
I can add little that cannot be found on that comprehensive website. Albert was killed on the first day of the Battle of the Somme on July 1st 1916 and was 21 when he died. He had been a farm labourer at Croydon, Cambs. before the war. Albert was awarded the British War and the Victory Medal. The inscription on the village war memorial "Sons of this place..." was written by the Rev T F Royds in 1919 as part of "Inscriptions suggested for War Memorials" (Victoria and Albert Museum, HMSO, London, 1919).
Kind regards,

Alan

I am trying to trace the history of a man called mr cw fuller from tynemouth. i was on holiday in south africa near cape town few years ago and bought a gold pocket watch in a flea market. it is inscribed presented to cw fuller who was held in high esteem tynemouth 9 oct 1899. the watch still works. what was this watch doing in south africa.did he serve in the boer war. was it a retirement watch.its a mystery. kind regards eric williams

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 24th February 2010 at 3:18 PM
Dear Eric,
Identifying C.W. Fuller positively will be a very difficult task. However, there are circumstantial clues that might help. The watch was apparently presented to a C.W. Fuller in Tynemouth and he was held in high esteem. The engraving appears to be formal, in that his initials are used rather than a given name. This could have been to save space or cost, but it could imply familiarity was out of place and that the watch was presented by subordinates. The inclusion of the location "Tynemouth" could imply some form of transience suggesting he was held in high esteem while at Tynemouth, as opposed to living there permanently. Had the watch been a retirement gift it may have included the name of his employer or company. The engraving could therefore represent a formal parting gift to someone held in high esteem while at Tynemouth. Army officers, for example, may be described as being held in high esteem. The date, [Monday] October 9 1899, coincides with the start of the Second Anglo-Boer War. War was declared on October 11 1899. One of the first ships sailing to the Cape was "S.S. Braemar Castle" which left Southampton on October 8th. So he could (and I stress "could") have been an officer who went to South Africa.
Casualty lists from the war did include private soldiers with the name C W Fuller ("The Times" various issues 1899 – 1900).The index to Hart's Army List for 1900 includes one officer with the name C.W. Fuller. Online listings of recipients of the Queen's South Africa Medal are not complete, but they do include one C.W. Fuller. I have identified this officer as Lieutenant C W Fuller of the Army Ordnance Corps. The government's official publication, the London Gazette, lists only one C.W. Fuller of the Ordnance Department. On18 May 1907 Honorary Lieutenant and Assistant Commissary of Ordnance Charles W. Fuller was promoted deputy Commissary of Ordnance with the honorary rank of Captain (London Gazette May 24 1907 page 3595). This was a regular army officer who also served in WW1 and I have identified him as Charles William Fuller who entered the war as a Major and was promoted to Lieutenant-Colonel in the Army Ordnance Department which later became the Royal Army Ordnance Corps. On September 22 1915, he was Mentioned in Despatches by the Commander in Chief Mediterranean Expeditionary Force General Ian Hamilton (who had fought in South Africa). He was Commissary and Honorary Major C.W. Fuller (London Gazette Nov 15th 1915 page 10999). His medal index card showed he was Charles William Fuller with an address at H.M. Gun Wharf, Portsmouth in 1921.
I can find no record of this man in the England censuses or General Register Office records which implies he may have been the child of an "Empire" or Army family living abroad.
Interestingly there is another Fuller who, a generation beforehand, was a Deputy Commissary in the Army. This was John Foster Fuller who was shown in the 1871 census as a 32 year old deputy commissary living in London with a 22 year old wife Mary A. who was born in Montreal, Canada.
John was born at Willington, Bedfordshire apparently the son of Henry Fuller (BA Oxon), born 1800, who was the vicar of Willington from 1834 to 1858. John died in London 1874 ("The Times" May 11 1874). It is plausible, but there is no evidence, that Charles William may have been the son of John Foster Fuller...like father, like son.
Summary of evidence: There is primary evidence for the service record in the Army, including South Africa, for the officer Charles William Fuller. Using the main sources of identification for officers, there appears to have been only one commissioned officer C.W. Fuller in the timescale considered. Genealogical information has proved hard to find, implying he lived mainly abroad. However, there is a possibility Charles Fuller was related to John Foster Fuller, who was a career officer with the same service a generation earlier.
Other than the coincidental date on the watch and the name there is no evidence to link the watch to Lieutenant Charles William Fuller. However, Tynemouth did have a garrison at the castle which had naval guns which were fired out to see both in defence and for practice shooting. It is conceivable Lt Fuller served with the Ordnance Department at Tynemouth before departing for South Africa as a regular army officer at the start of the Second Anglo-Boer War.
The watch itself may provide further clues. Two watchmakers at Tynemouth at the time were: Lister and Son, Watchmaker, 4 St. Thomas Terrace, North Road; and Mitcheson J.G., Watchmaker, Tynemouth. Further research will have to identify Charles William Fuller and place him in Tynemouth, either with the Army or something like a munitions company or weapons manufacturer such as Armstrong Whitworth at Elswick. Your local library may have free computer access to The Times Online or the Gale online newspapers from the British Library which includes the Newcastle Courant up to 1900. Something like "Farewell dinner for Mr Fuller" would be ideal.
I can only stress, Eric, that because I have found one C W Fuller who was in South Africa after 1899 that does not mean I have found the owner of the watch. The genealogical evidence is lacking to say the least. However, I hope the methods I have illustrated may encourage you to pursue the chase to the end. I know it must be a frustrating mystery.
Kind regards,

Alan

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Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Wednesday 24th February 2010 at 3:18 PM
Dear Eric,
Identifying C.W. Fuller positively will be a very difficult task. However, there are circumstantial clues that might help. The watch was apparently presented to a C.W. Fuller in Tynemouth and he was held in high esteem. The engraving appears to be formal, in that his initials are used rather than a given name. This could have been to save space or cost, but it could imply familiarity was out of place and that the watch was presented by subordinates. The inclusion of the location "Tynemouth" could imply some form of transience suggesting he was held in high esteem while at Tynemouth, as opposed to living there permanently. Had the watch been a retirement gift it may have included the name of his employer or company. The engraving could therefore represent a formal parting gift to someone held in high esteem while at Tynemouth. Army officers, for example, may be described as being held in high esteem. The date, [Monday] October 9 1899, coincides with the start of the Second Anglo-Boer War. War was declared on October 11 1899. One of the first ships sailing to the Cape was "S.S. Braemar Castle" which left Southampton on October 8th. So he could (and I stress "could") have been an officer who went to South Africa.
Casualty lists from the war did include private soldiers with the name C W Fuller ("The Times" various issues 1899 – 1900).The index to Hart's Army List for 1900 includes one officer with the name C.W. Fuller. Online listings of recipients of the Queen's South Africa Medal are not complete, but they do include one C.W. Fuller. I have identified this officer as Lieutenant C W Fuller of the Army Ordnance Corps. The government's official publication, the London Gazette, lists only one C.W. Fuller of the Ordnance Department. On18 May 1907 Honorary Lieutenant and Assistant Commissary of Ordnance Charles W. Fuller was promoted deputy Commissary of Ordnance with the honorary rank of Captain (London Gazette May 24 1907 page 3595). This was a regular army officer who also served in WW1 and I have identified him as Charles William Fuller who entered the war as a Major and was promoted to Lieutenant-Colonel in the Army Ordnance Department which later became the Royal Army Ordnance Corps. On September 22 1915, he was Mentioned in Despatches by the Commander in Chief Mediterranean Expeditionary Force General Ian Hamilton (who had fought in South Africa). He was Commissary and Honorary Major C.W. Fuller (London Gazette Nov 15th 1915 page 10999). His medal index card showed he was Charles William Fuller with an address at H.M. Gun Wharf, Portsmouth in 1921.
I can find no record of this man in the England censuses or General Register Office records which implies he may have been the child of an "Empire" or Army family living abroad.
Interestingly there is another Fuller who, a generation beforehand, was a Deputy Commissary in the Army. This was John Foster Fuller who was shown in the 1871 census as a 32 year old deputy commissary living in London with a 22 year old wife Mary A. who was born in Montreal, Canada.
John was born at Willington, Bedfordshire apparently the son of Henry Fuller (BA Oxon), born 1800, who was the vicar of Willington from 1834 to 1858. John died in London 1874 ("The Times" May 11 1874). It is plausible, but there is no evidence, that Charles William may have been the son of John Foster Fuller...like father, like son.
Summary of evidence: There is primary evidence for the service record in the Army, including South Africa, for the officer Charles William Fuller. Using the main sources of identification for officers, there appears to have been only one commissioned officer C.W. Fuller in the timescale considered. Genealogical information has proved hard to find, implying he lived mainly abroad. However, there is a possibility Charles Fuller was related to John Foster Fuller, who was a career officer with the same service a generation earlier.
Other than the coincidental date on the watch and the name there is no evidence to link the watch to Lieutenant Charles William Fuller. However, Tynemouth did have a garrison at the castle which had naval guns which were fired out to see both in defence and for practice shooting. It is conceivable Lt Fuller served with the Ordnance Department at Tynemouth before departing for South Africa as a regular army officer at the start of the Second Anglo-Boer War.
The watch itself may provide further clues. Two watchmakers at Tynemouth at the time were: Lister and Son, Watchmaker, 4 St. Thomas Terrace, North Road; and Mitcheson J.G., Watchmaker, Tynemouth. Further research will have to identify Charles William Fuller and place him in Tynemouth, either with the Army or something like a munitions company or weapons manufacturer such as Armstrong Whitworth at Elswick. Your local library may have free computer access to The Times Online or the Gale online newspapers from the British Library which includes the Newcastle Courant up to 1900. Something like "Farewell dinner for Mr Fuller" would be ideal.
I can only stress, Eric, that because I have found one C W Fuller who was in South Africa after 1899 that does not mean I have found the owner of the watch. The genealogical evidence is lacking to say the least. However, I hope the methods I have illustrated may encourage you to pursue the chase to the end. I know it must be a frustrating mystery.
Kind regards,

Alan